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	<title>Comments on: Old Commissioner Cole isn&#8217;t a merry old soul</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/</link>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30905</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Apr 2006 03:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30905</guid>
		<description>Ho hum.  Most Howard voters are perfectly aware that he couldn&#039;t lie straight in bed, that he and his ministers took great care not to know about AWB and that he would never permit an inquiry that found against him.  But the buggers vote for him anyway because he&#039;s presided over good economic outcomes, he  pretends to be no cleverer than them and he appeals to the sort of lazy narrowmindedness that most people have.  He generally makes them relaxed and comfortable (which is why his IR changes are now upsetting many of them).

I agree that in the long run failure to punish this sort of behaviour in governments leads to tears, but until it does don&#039;t expect any electoral consequences - just look how long Jo B-P was around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ho hum.  Most Howard voters are perfectly aware that he couldn&#8217;t lie straight in bed, that he and his ministers took great care not to know about AWB and that he would never permit an inquiry that found against him.  But the buggers vote for him anyway because he&#8217;s presided over good economic outcomes, he  pretends to be no cleverer than them and he appeals to the sort of lazy narrowmindedness that most people have.  He generally makes them relaxed and comfortable (which is why his IR changes are now upsetting many of them).</p>
<p>I agree that in the long run failure to punish this sort of behaviour in governments leads to tears, but until it does don&#8217;t expect any electoral consequences &#8211; just look how long Jo B-P was around.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Morris QC on royal commissions</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30893</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Morris QC on royal commissions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30893</guid>
		<description>[...] I read the judgment at the time, and recall concluding that, while Morris had behaved somewhat imprudently in a number of respects, the Court appeared to have adopted an unduly narrow and restrictive attitude towards the proper role and functioning of a royal commissioner. I doubt that the Supreme Court decision would have stood had it been appealed through to the High Court, but it obviously didn&#8217;t suit the Beattie government&#8217;s political interests to do so. I can&#8217;t help wondering whether Tony Morris&#8217;s fate might now be an actuating factor in what I see as an excessively cautious approach being adopted by AWB Royal Commissioner Terrence Cole QC. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I read the judgment at the time, and recall concluding that, while Morris had behaved somewhat imprudently in a number of respects, the Court appeared to have adopted an unduly narrow and restrictive attitude towards the proper role and functioning of a royal commissioner. I doubt that the Supreme Court decision would have stood had it been appealed through to the High Court, but it obviously didn&#8217;t suit the Beattie government&#8217;s political interests to do so. I can&#8217;t help wondering whether Tony Morris&#8217;s fate might now be an actuating factor in what I see as an excessively cautious approach being adopted by AWB Royal Commissioner Terrence Cole QC. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cs</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30889</link>
		<dc:creator>cs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30889</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Why is the allegation about the Head of ASIO not an immediate hanging offence when he seeks to hang rministers on far less evidence?&lt;/em&gt;

But surely this statement is manifestly untrue. O&#039;Sullivan has become involved on one piece of indirect evidence and has not been heard in his defence - the point Rudd made. The government, on the other hand, has been directly implicated by countless pieces of evidence (including a fresh intel swag released today) and has had ample opportunities to reply, and in any event on classical westminster principles of accountability Downer, and probably also Vaile, should have resigned by now.

I don&#039;t know about the &quot;cynical disregard&quot;, not having the &quot;punter&quot; telepathy everyone else seems possessed by, and nor do I get why this matters in any event, since there is no election due. Moreover, nor can I see what is wrong with the &quot;political gotcha!&quot; being what this is all about. Isn&#039;t it what it is all about? What else could or should it be about?

For those who are following the matter closely, and many obviously are, regardless of what &quot;the punters&quot; are apparently thinking, the matter goes straight to the integrity of the government, about which there have been serious and accumulating questions ever since the Dubai affair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Why is the allegation about the Head of ASIO not an immediate hanging offence when he seeks to hang rministers on far less evidence?</em></p>
<p>But surely this statement is manifestly untrue. O&#8217;Sullivan has become involved on one piece of indirect evidence and has not been heard in his defence &#8211; the point Rudd made. The government, on the other hand, has been directly implicated by countless pieces of evidence (including a fresh intel swag released today) and has had ample opportunities to reply, and in any event on classical westminster principles of accountability Downer, and probably also Vaile, should have resigned by now.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about the &#8220;cynical disregard&#8221;, not having the &#8220;punter&#8221; telepathy everyone else seems possessed by, and nor do I get why this matters in any event, since there is no election due. Moreover, nor can I see what is wrong with the &#8220;political gotcha!&#8221; being what this is all about. Isn&#8217;t it what it is all about? What else could or should it be about?</p>
<p>For those who are following the matter closely, and many obviously are, regardless of what &#8220;the punters&#8221; are apparently thinking, the matter goes straight to the integrity of the government, about which there have been serious and accumulating questions ever since the Dubai affair.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Honnor</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30885</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Honnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 05:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30885</guid>
		<description>&quot;What&#039;s the surprise here?&quot;

No surprise at all. It&#039;s  politics as usual with all that entails. Kevin Rudd last night was asked by Tony Jones if he&#039;d call for the resignation of Paul O&#039;sullivan from head of ASIO after the allegations made to Cole about O&#039;Sullivan coaching AWB execs to evade Volcker. Showing a sudden affection for due process, Rudd opined that this was a most serious matter, not to be taken lightly, outcome of which should await further enquiry, one step at a time blah, blah.  Why is the allegation about the Head of ASIO not an immediate hanging offence when he seeks to hang rministers on far less evidence?  

Obviously, it&#039;s not politically useful.

Why is there a cynical disregard for the political process? Because people assume that outrage is confected, that moral indignation is trumped up and that the political gotcha! is what it&#039;s all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What&#8217;s the surprise here?&#8221;</p>
<p>No surprise at all. It&#8217;s  politics as usual with all that entails. Kevin Rudd last night was asked by Tony Jones if he&#8217;d call for the resignation of Paul O&#8217;sullivan from head of ASIO after the allegations made to Cole about O&#8217;Sullivan coaching AWB execs to evade Volcker. Showing a sudden affection for due process, Rudd opined that this was a most serious matter, not to be taken lightly, outcome of which should await further enquiry, one step at a time blah, blah.  Why is the allegation about the Head of ASIO not an immediate hanging offence when he seeks to hang rministers on far less evidence?  </p>
<p>Obviously, it&#8217;s not politically useful.</p>
<p>Why is there a cynical disregard for the political process? Because people assume that outrage is confected, that moral indignation is trumped up and that the political gotcha! is what it&#8217;s all about.</p>
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		<title>By: cs</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30884</link>
		<dc:creator>cs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 04:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30884</guid>
		<description>Interesting post Ken. So, what is your conclusion as to the motives here?

Re Geoff&#039;s point about the so-called punters, and leaving aside the mysterious ways and means by which everyone always has a lock on what these mythical creatures think, I am at something of a loss as to why this is assumed to be such a telling point, so telling that everyone keeps telling it to us? Is it to be assumed that politcs and policy should be determined by the number of talkback radio calls it attracts?

And of course AWB has been reduced to a bit part, partly because everyone knows its already gone, and partly because finding a crooked company is nowhere near as significant as finding a crooked government. What&#039;s the surprise here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post Ken. So, what is your conclusion as to the motives here?</p>
<p>Re Geoff&#8217;s point about the so-called punters, and leaving aside the mysterious ways and means by which everyone always has a lock on what these mythical creatures think, I am at something of a loss as to why this is assumed to be such a telling point, so telling that everyone keeps telling it to us? Is it to be assumed that politcs and policy should be determined by the number of talkback radio calls it attracts?</p>
<p>And of course AWB has been reduced to a bit part, partly because everyone knows its already gone, and partly because finding a crooked company is nowhere near as significant as finding a crooked government. What&#8217;s the surprise here?</p>
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		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30882</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 04:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30882</guid>
		<description>John Howard was being interviewed on the 7.30 report and I asked the people at our place what word would best describe him.
Shifty was the almost unanimous word.
He did not look comfortable at all and his body language was quite negative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Howard was being interviewed on the 7.30 report and I asked the people at our place what word would best describe him.<br />
Shifty was the almost unanimous word.<br />
He did not look comfortable at all and his body language was quite negative.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30881</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 03:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30881</guid>
		<description>Geoff

BTW I agree that AWB is dead in water as a political issue likely to sway any votes, and that&#039;s been the case for some considerable time.  But that isn&#039;t what concerns me.  I actually DO think that maintaining or reconstructing some workable, transparent system of public accountability for politicians and public servants is a matter of vital concern.  

The narrow, constipated view of the nature and scope of a royal commission and what a commissioner can properly seek, currently being advanced by Cole, significantly undermines that institution as an acountability vehicle.  In the context of a government currently having control of both houses of parliament, thereby neating any possibility of a meaningful Senate committee enquiry, and with Howard having reduced Westminster notions of ministerial responsibility to an even bigger joke than they were in Keating&#039;s latter period, Cole&#039;s stance is especially disappointing.  I&#039;m intending to post again later today on that broader issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff</p>
<p>BTW I agree that AWB is dead in water as a political issue likely to sway any votes, and that&#8217;s been the case for some considerable time.  But that isn&#8217;t what concerns me.  I actually DO think that maintaining or reconstructing some workable, transparent system of public accountability for politicians and public servants is a matter of vital concern.  </p>
<p>The narrow, constipated view of the nature and scope of a royal commission and what a commissioner can properly seek, currently being advanced by Cole, significantly undermines that institution as an acountability vehicle.  In the context of a government currently having control of both houses of parliament, thereby neating any possibility of a meaningful Senate committee enquiry, and with Howard having reduced Westminster notions of ministerial responsibility to an even bigger joke than they were in Keating&#8217;s latter period, Cole&#8217;s stance is especially disappointing.  I&#8217;m intending to post again later today on that broader issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30880</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 02:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30880</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not ascribing corrupt motives at all.  I&#039;m just suggesting that many people, not just rusted-on ALP supporters, will certainly leap to such conclusions.   And it could so easily be avoided by taking a more robust approach as Fitzgerald and numerous others have done in the past.  A royal commission, not unlike a coronial inquest in some ways, is about clearing the air and justice not only being done but being seen to be done.  An excessively narrow, timid approach militates against the enquiry fulfilling that crucial function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not ascribing corrupt motives at all.  I&#8217;m just suggesting that many people, not just rusted-on ALP supporters, will certainly leap to such conclusions.   And it could so easily be avoided by taking a more robust approach as Fitzgerald and numerous others have done in the past.  A royal commission, not unlike a coronial inquest in some ways, is about clearing the air and justice not only being done but being seen to be done.  An excessively narrow, timid approach militates against the enquiry fulfilling that crucial function.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Honnor</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30878</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Honnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 02:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/03/30/old-commissioner-cole-isnt-a-merry-old-soul/#comment-30878</guid>
		<description>As I commented on your earlier post, the thrust of the media/ALP approach to this matter has been entirely about getting a Minister - the AWB boys appear as semi-relevant bit players in this scenario - but even counsel assisting the commission has owned the improbability of so doing. It&#039;s turned the whole thing into a politics-as-usual circus and the punters have tuned out. Rudd was reduced yesterday to waving the Australian&#039;s editorial around as some sort of moral imprimatur for Downer&#039;s dismissal. Surprisingly enough, it didn&#039;t work. 

What does emerge, with blinding clarity, is that DFAT and the PM&#039;s Office should have known what was going on and I suspect that the question of ministerial culpability will ultimately rest on a judgment around the degree of negligence therein rather than any &quot;criminality&quot; per se.

But I&#039;m inclined to wait and see what finally emerges before rendering a final verdict.  In the meantime,  I&#039;d be hesitant about ascribing corrupt motives to Cole, Ken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I commented on your earlier post, the thrust of the media/ALP approach to this matter has been entirely about getting a Minister &#8211; the AWB boys appear as semi-relevant bit players in this scenario &#8211; but even counsel assisting the commission has owned the improbability of so doing. It&#8217;s turned the whole thing into a politics-as-usual circus and the punters have tuned out. Rudd was reduced yesterday to waving the Australian&#8217;s editorial around as some sort of moral imprimatur for Downer&#8217;s dismissal. Surprisingly enough, it didn&#8217;t work. </p>
<p>What does emerge, with blinding clarity, is that DFAT and the PM&#8217;s Office should have known what was going on and I suspect that the question of ministerial culpability will ultimately rest on a judgment around the degree of negligence therein rather than any &#8220;criminality&#8221; per se.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m inclined to wait and see what finally emerges before rendering a final verdict.  In the meantime,  I&#8217;d be hesitant about ascribing corrupt motives to Cole, Ken.</p>
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