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	<title>Comments on: No Gary No!</title>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41848</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for that Ian.  I had assumed that was what they were calling onshore applicants for protection or humanitarian visas, mostly because the observation in the intro was under an itnem relating to the humanitarian program and because I know from previous research that the numbers of onshore applicants in those categories always numbers in the thousands.  I wonder what the true figure is?  The statistical publications elsewhere on the DIMA site only go up to 2004-5 (and earlier in some cases).  In any event, the exact figure doesn&#039;t affect the overall point iw as making, namely that the number of onshore applicants always vastly outnumbers the boat people applicants so that claims that the legal system can&#039;t cope with the latter are fanciful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Ian.  I had assumed that was what they were calling onshore applicants for protection or humanitarian visas, mostly because the observation in the intro was under an itnem relating to the humanitarian program and because I know from previous research that the numbers of onshore applicants in those categories always numbers in the thousands.  I wonder what the true figure is?  The statistical publications elsewhere on the DIMA site only go up to 2004-5 (and earlier in some cases).  In any event, the exact figure doesn&#8217;t affect the overall point iw as making, namely that the number of onshore applicants always vastly outnumbers the boat people applicants so that claims that the legal system can&#8217;t cope with the latter are fanciful.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian K</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41842</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41842</guid>
		<description>Ken said: &quot;the number of &quot;non-program&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken said: &#8220;the number of &#8220;non-program&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Francis X Holden</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41611</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis X Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I can&#039;t see what problem 1,000 or 2,000 boat arrivals would be for us each year. Going on current evidence to date any terrorists are likely to be born here and have travelled away from here a few times.

Disclosure: With my (extended)family we have 5 Papuan refugees living with us here with bed, food, clothes, cars, computers, school fees and in my case in particular lots of guitars, CDs, concerts, music, booze and advice. They are all working as well as studying and rather than being burden on this society are a clear assett. The stories of ongoing persecution by the Indos and starvation in PNG camps are no joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t see what problem 1,000 or 2,000 boat arrivals would be for us each year. Going on current evidence to date any terrorists are likely to be born here and have travelled away from here a few times.</p>
<p>Disclosure: With my (extended)family we have 5 Papuan refugees living with us here with bed, food, clothes, cars, computers, school fees and in my case in particular lots of guitars, CDs, concerts, music, booze and advice. They are all working as well as studying and rather than being burden on this society are a clear assett. The stories of ongoing persecution by the Indos and starvation in PNG camps are no joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41610</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41610</guid>
		<description>Ken: 
Isn&#039;t the difference between plane and boat arrivals that plane arrivals have &lt;i&gt;papers&lt;/i&gt;. Your ME boat people from 4 years ago flew from Karachi to KL or Jakarta, were allowed through customs there, travelled to south Indonesia, destroyed their own documents, then paid a large sum of money to get on a leaky boat. It seems to me that their very manner of arrival means that they &lt;i&gt;self assessed&lt;/i&gt; as non-refugees.

Now I am against the Pacific Solution because it does not address the main issue. And it was an appalling precedent. Not giving people access to Australian law because Australian law is too generous invites the question - why not change the Australian law? For instance to reverse the onus of proof and limit appeals. This may mean formally withdrawing from the 1951 convention.

The Papuans are surely genuine refugees. They have papers and Australia is the first port of call. They are at risk. Indonesia have plenty of form. But once the excision precedent has been set it can be used for other reasons. It is heartening that the political tide is turning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken:<br />
Isn&#8217;t the difference between plane and boat arrivals that plane arrivals have <i>papers</i>. Your ME boat people from 4 years ago flew from Karachi to KL or Jakarta, were allowed through customs there, travelled to south Indonesia, destroyed their own documents, then paid a large sum of money to get on a leaky boat. It seems to me that their very manner of arrival means that they <i>self assessed</i> as non-refugees.</p>
<p>Now I am against the Pacific Solution because it does not address the main issue. And it was an appalling precedent. Not giving people access to Australian law because Australian law is too generous invites the question &#8211; why not change the Australian law? For instance to reverse the onus of proof and limit appeals. This may mean formally withdrawing from the 1951 convention.</p>
<p>The Papuans are surely genuine refugees. They have papers and Australia is the first port of call. They are at risk. Indonesia have plenty of form. But once the excision precedent has been set it can be used for other reasons. It is heartening that the political tide is turning.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41594</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/08/15/no-gary-no/#comment-41594</guid>
		<description>&quot;But air refugees are not a problem because people are prevented from boarding a plane for Australia unless they have a visa, and the immigration department does not give tourist visas to those likely to claim asylum.&quot;

That&#039;s certainly DIMA&#039;s objective, but they never achieve it.  According to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/immigration-update/update_dec05.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;most recent update&lt;/a&gt;, the number of &quot;non-program&quot; humanitarian arrivals in 2005 was 11,669.  Since to the best of my knowledge no illegal boat-borne applicants arrived during 2005 (the 43 Papuans arrived in January), we can reasonably assume that all of those 11,669 people arrived by air with valid visas and then made applications for protection or humanitarian visas.  The number of visa-holding onshore asylum seekers has always dwarfed the number of illegal boat people arrivals.  Typically around 12,000 of the former arrive every year, while the illegal boat people arrivals numbered in the hundreds throughout the 1990s, rose to 2000 or so from 1999-2002 and then fell back almost to zero after Tampa, Pacific Solution etc.  

The bizarre thing about the visa-holding applicants, in contrast to the boat people arivals, is that the former have always been allowed to remain at large in the community while their protection visa aplications are processed and appeals heard, while the latter are kept in detention throughout.  I&#039;ve never really understood why we regard the boat people as a threat whereas the visa-holders aren&#039;t.  Or is it that we regard the boat people as cheats and queue jumpers and therefore morally unworthy?  But surely the visa-holding arrivals are cheats and queue jumpers at least as much as the boat people.  In many cases, they sought and obtained a tourist, student or other visa under false pretences, habouring a secret intention to apply for a protection visa once they reached Australia.

Of course these facts also impact Don Randall&#039;s silly statement that &quot;Australia&#039;s legal system cannot deal with unauthorised arrivals on the mainland&quot;.  In fact our legal system has been dealing perfectly adequately (in the sense that neither politicians nor the public seem to have even noticed let alone commented)  with the appeals and judicial review applications of the very much larger cohort of legal-arrival asylum seekers, as well as with the tiny number of illegal arrivals.  Why would giving legal appeal and judicial review rights to a few dozen (or even a few hundred) illegal boat arrivals cause insurmountable problems for the legal system when giving exactly the same rights to 12,000 legal arrivals every year apparently causes no problems at all?  It simply confirms (if any confirmation was needed) that Howard&#039;s aborted expanded Pacific solution legislation had everything to do with pandering to Indonesian sensibilities and very little to do with sensible, humane management of policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But air refugees are not a problem because people are prevented from boarding a plane for Australia unless they have a visa, and the immigration department does not give tourist visas to those likely to claim asylum.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s certainly DIMA&#8217;s objective, but they never achieve it.  According to the <a href="http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/immigration-update/update_dec05.pdf">most recent update</a>, the number of &#8220;non-program&#8221; humanitarian arrivals in 2005 was 11,669.  Since to the best of my knowledge no illegal boat-borne applicants arrived during 2005 (the 43 Papuans arrived in January), we can reasonably assume that all of those 11,669 people arrived by air with valid visas and then made applications for protection or humanitarian visas.  The number of visa-holding onshore asylum seekers has always dwarfed the number of illegal boat people arrivals.  Typically around 12,000 of the former arrive every year, while the illegal boat people arrivals numbered in the hundreds throughout the 1990s, rose to 2000 or so from 1999-2002 and then fell back almost to zero after Tampa, Pacific Solution etc.  </p>
<p>The bizarre thing about the visa-holding applicants, in contrast to the boat people arivals, is that the former have always been allowed to remain at large in the community while their protection visa aplications are processed and appeals heard, while the latter are kept in detention throughout.  I&#8217;ve never really understood why we regard the boat people as a threat whereas the visa-holders aren&#8217;t.  Or is it that we regard the boat people as cheats and queue jumpers and therefore morally unworthy?  But surely the visa-holding arrivals are cheats and queue jumpers at least as much as the boat people.  In many cases, they sought and obtained a tourist, student or other visa under false pretences, habouring a secret intention to apply for a protection visa once they reached Australia.</p>
<p>Of course these facts also impact Don Randall&#8217;s silly statement that &#8220;Australia&#8217;s legal system cannot deal with unauthorised arrivals on the mainland&#8221;.  In fact our legal system has been dealing perfectly adequately (in the sense that neither politicians nor the public seem to have even noticed let alone commented)  with the appeals and judicial review applications of the very much larger cohort of legal-arrival asylum seekers, as well as with the tiny number of illegal arrivals.  Why would giving legal appeal and judicial review rights to a few dozen (or even a few hundred) illegal boat arrivals cause insurmountable problems for the legal system when giving exactly the same rights to 12,000 legal arrivals every year apparently causes no problems at all?  It simply confirms (if any confirmation was needed) that Howard&#8217;s aborted expanded Pacific solution legislation had everything to do with pandering to Indonesian sensibilities and very little to do with sensible, humane management of policy.</p>
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