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	<title>Comments on: Phelps versus Friedman</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/</link>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54082</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 04:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54082</guid>
		<description>Rafe&#039;s assertion that commenters on this thread invoke social justice to justify interference with markets &quot;&lt;em&gt;without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves&lt;/em&gt;&quot; is incorrect. Fred Argy is one of the main contributors to this thread, and one of his major themes on government intervention strategies pays &lt;strong&gt;very&lt;/strong&gt; strong regard to self-help and similar incentives in welfare programs. Here&#039;s a typical extract from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/01/23/dealing-with-joblessness-and-income-inequality-has-australia-taken-the-wrong-turn-guest-post-by-fred-argy/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one of Fred&#039;s posts&lt;/a&gt; here at Troppo:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Model 4 is favoured by the Scandinavian countries and some of the smaller Europeans (such as the Netherlands and Austria). It involves high taxes and redistribution on an even larger scale than group 3 - but the income support provided, while generous, is more work-conditional and employment protection laws are less strict than group 3 - although stricter than in groups 1 and 2 (or Australia). Instead this model relies heavily on &#039;active&#039; social programs to enhance the productivity and mobility of low income people throughout their life cycle. For example, in addition to spending much more on education, governments in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands invest about four times more (relative to GDP) on active labour market programs </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafe&#8217;s assertion that commenters on this thread invoke social justice to justify interference with markets &#8220;<em>without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves</em>&#8221; is incorrect. Fred Argy is one of the main contributors to this thread, and one of his major themes on government intervention strategies pays <strong>very</strong> strong regard to self-help and similar incentives in welfare programs. Here&#8217;s a typical extract from <a href="http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/01/23/dealing-with-joblessness-and-income-inequality-has-australia-taken-the-wrong-turn-guest-post-by-fred-argy/">one of Fred&#8217;s posts</a> here at Troppo:</p>
<blockquote><p>Model 4 is favoured by the Scandinavian countries and some of the smaller Europeans (such as the Netherlands and Austria). It involves high taxes and redistribution on an even larger scale than group 3 &#8211; but the income support provided, while generous, is more work-conditional and employment protection laws are less strict than group 3 &#8211; although stricter than in groups 1 and 2 (or Australia). Instead this model relies heavily on &#8216;active&#8217; social programs to enhance the productivity and mobility of low income people throughout their life cycle. For example, in addition to spending much more on education, governments in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands invest about four times more (relative to GDP) on active labour market programs</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: steve munn</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54080</link>
		<dc:creator>steve munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 04:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54080</guid>
		<description>Let me just finish that sentence for you, Rafe:

&quot;...without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves.... to their neighbour&#039;s DVD Player, stereo and jewellery.&quot;

America&#039;s mean welfare system and prison population of over 2 million are not unrelated facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me just finish that sentence for you, Rafe:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves&#8230;. to their neighbour&#8217;s DVD Player, stereo and jewellery.&#8221;</p>
<p>America&#8217;s mean welfare system and prison population of over 2 million are not unrelated facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54055</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-54055</guid>
		<description>Interesting to see this thread running in parallel with the thread on morality, and to see how social justice and economic justice are invoked to justify interference with markets, without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting to see this thread running in parallel with the thread on morality, and to see how social justice and economic justice are invoked to justify interference with markets, without regard to the way that so many interventions and welfare programs reduce the incentive for poor people to help themsleves.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53952</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53952</guid>
		<description>Having now read the full article by Phelps in The Wall Street Journal, I find it very stimulating but it leaves me unhappy on several fronts. 

First, he limits his empirical discussion of productivity and innovation to the last decade. A much longer historical perspective would have been appropriate.

More importantly I don&#039;t know why he focuses on the &quot;Continent&#039;s Big Three&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having now read the full article by Phelps in The Wall Street Journal, I find it very stimulating but it leaves me unhappy on several fronts. </p>
<p>First, he limits his empirical discussion of productivity and innovation to the last decade. A much longer historical perspective would have been appropriate.</p>
<p>More importantly I don&#8217;t know why he focuses on the &#8220;Continent&#8217;s Big Three&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53942</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53942</guid>
		<description>Chris

You&#039;re right that monetary policy has become the main arm of macro policy, but it&#039;s not the same thing as monetary targeting. Monetary targeting means targeting the money supply, that is, using whatever instruments the central bank has at its disposable to ensure that the aggregate quantity of money in circulation stays within certain precise bounds. Monetarists proposed that the money supply be restricted to a growth rate equal to the average growth rate of real GDP, leaving no room for price inflation. Most central banks tried this approach in the mid 1970s, but a decade later most had given up. Central banks can influence the money supply, but experience proved they can&#039;t contol it, whether they target the money base, M1, or M3. In any case, the causation between money growth and price growth can work in both directions. Central banks these days simply monitor the inflation rate itself, and many, have an explicit inflation target. Do a search of the RBA web site and you won&#039;t find any mention of the money supply, except in the more academic research papers. They still measure the various aggregates, though.

The &#039;selling or buying government securities on the market&#039; that Ken referes to still happens, but this is the means by which the official interest rate (the &#039;overnight cash rate&#039;) is manipulated: it&#039;s not done with a view to its effect on the money supply itself (although generally speaking if the interest rate is raised people will reduce their deposit holdings and the money supply will fall.) 

Thanks to others for their comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that monetary policy has become the main arm of macro policy, but it&#8217;s not the same thing as monetary targeting. Monetary targeting means targeting the money supply, that is, using whatever instruments the central bank has at its disposable to ensure that the aggregate quantity of money in circulation stays within certain precise bounds. Monetarists proposed that the money supply be restricted to a growth rate equal to the average growth rate of real GDP, leaving no room for price inflation. Most central banks tried this approach in the mid 1970s, but a decade later most had given up. Central banks can influence the money supply, but experience proved they can&#8217;t contol it, whether they target the money base, M1, or M3. In any case, the causation between money growth and price growth can work in both directions. Central banks these days simply monitor the inflation rate itself, and many, have an explicit inflation target. Do a search of the RBA web site and you won&#8217;t find any mention of the money supply, except in the more academic research papers. They still measure the various aggregates, though.</p>
<p>The &#8216;selling or buying government securities on the market&#8217; that Ken referes to still happens, but this is the means by which the official interest rate (the &#8216;overnight cash rate&#8217;) is manipulated: it&#8217;s not done with a view to its effect on the money supply itself (although generally speaking if the interest rate is raised people will reduce their deposit holdings and the money supply will fall.) </p>
<p>Thanks to others for their comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bring Back EP at LP</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53941</link>
		<dc:creator>Bring Back EP at LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53941</guid>
		<description>damned good summary DD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>damned good summary DD</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53940</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53940</guid>
		<description>As critics on both left (traditional Keynesians) and right (supplysiders) pointed out, there is nothing &quot;natural&quot; about the natural rate of unemployment. Both, for rather different reasons, asserted that in the real world the NRU does not provide an anchor for the unemployment rate, any perturbation from which tends to be self-correcting, and hence is not a particularly useful concept as it cannot be made operational.

The change from NRU to NAIRU was an attempt to meet these criticisms (unsuccessful in the view of the Real Business Cycle theorists, who are maybe best thought of as over-mathematicised Austrians).  This change was responsible for the &#039;neo-Keynesian synthesis&#039; of mainstream macro, which has led to inflation targeting rather than money supply targeting - to the disgust of the RBC crowd.

Phelps was always much less of a hardcore macroeconomist than Friedman - he actually paid lip service early on to the importance of the microeconomics of the labour market to stability, growth and distribution.

BTW Chris it&#039;s now pretty apparent that, whatever the Nobel committee thought at the time, it is Friedman&#039;s permanent income stuff (and maybe his portfolio theory) that will give him whatever immortality he gets.  As a practical aid to running an economy that has a sophisticated financial sector (and thus is able to easily provide good substitutes for whatever concept of money you&#039;re trying to target) monetarism is dead, outside perhaps parts of the ECB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As critics on both left (traditional Keynesians) and right (supplysiders) pointed out, there is nothing &#8220;natural&#8221; about the natural rate of unemployment. Both, for rather different reasons, asserted that in the real world the NRU does not provide an anchor for the unemployment rate, any perturbation from which tends to be self-correcting, and hence is not a particularly useful concept as it cannot be made operational.</p>
<p>The change from NRU to NAIRU was an attempt to meet these criticisms (unsuccessful in the view of the Real Business Cycle theorists, who are maybe best thought of as over-mathematicised Austrians).  This change was responsible for the &#8216;neo-Keynesian synthesis&#8217; of mainstream macro, which has led to inflation targeting rather than money supply targeting &#8211; to the disgust of the RBC crowd.</p>
<p>Phelps was always much less of a hardcore macroeconomist than Friedman &#8211; he actually paid lip service early on to the importance of the microeconomics of the labour market to stability, growth and distribution.</p>
<p>BTW Chris it&#8217;s now pretty apparent that, whatever the Nobel committee thought at the time, it is Friedman&#8217;s permanent income stuff (and maybe his portfolio theory) that will give him whatever immortality he gets.  As a practical aid to running an economy that has a sophisticated financial sector (and thus is able to easily provide good substitutes for whatever concept of money you&#8217;re trying to target) monetarism is dead, outside perhaps parts of the ECB.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53576</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53576</guid>
		<description>I think money supply targetting involves a central bank tightening or loosening the money supply by selling or buying government securities on the market, thereby leaving</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think money supply targetting involves a central bank tightening or loosening the money supply by selling or buying government securities on the market, thereby leaving</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53562</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53562</guid>
		<description>James: You said &quot;His attempt to revive the quantity theory of money was if anything a backward step, sending many central banks down the blind alley of money supply targeting...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James: You said &#8220;His attempt to revive the quantity theory of money was if anything a backward step, sending many central banks down the blind alley of money supply targeting&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bring Back EP at LP</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53542</link>
		<dc:creator>Bring Back EP at LP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53542</guid>
		<description>Rafe, central banks around the world disagree with you and given this golden age thank God.

Mr Phelps of course got a recording which self destroyed in the original Mission Impossible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafe, central banks around the world disagree with you and given this golden age thank God.</p>
<p>Mr Phelps of course got a recording which self destroyed in the original Mission Impossible</p>
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		<title>By: Gaby</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53513</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53513</guid>
		<description>Nice post as usual James. Until now Phelps was just the name in a few old eco texts.

I&#039;ll certainly read the links to his stuff on subsidies. Sounds very interesting. I&#039;m sure it won&#039;t be &quot;piffle&quot;...as I&#039;m sure Nicholas&#039;s work on imputation and the company tax rate isn&#039;t either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post as usual James. Until now Phelps was just the name in a few old eco texts.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll certainly read the links to his stuff on subsidies. Sounds very interesting. I&#8217;m sure it won&#8217;t be &#8220;piffle&#8221;&#8230;as I&#8217;m sure Nicholas&#8217;s work on imputation and the company tax rate isn&#8217;t either.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53512</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53512</guid>
		<description>This is  an alternative view on the Phelps achievement.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Phelps could have made great contribution to the economic profession by dismissing the entire framework of the supposed trade-off between inflation and unemployment (the Phillips Curve). Unfortunately he has chosen to stick to the bankrupt framework by making some amendments to it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Provided by an  &quot;Austrian&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mises.org/story/2351&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Austrian&quot;&lt;/a&gt; in Australia!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is  an alternative view on the Phelps achievement.</p>
<blockquote><p>Phelps could have made great contribution to the economic profession by dismissing the entire framework of the supposed trade-off between inflation and unemployment (the Phillips Curve). Unfortunately he has chosen to stick to the bankrupt framework by making some amendments to it. </p></blockquote>
<p>Provided by an  &#8220;Austrian&#8221; <a href="http://www.mises.org/story/2351">&#8220;Austrian&#8221;</a> in Australia!</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53505</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53505</guid>
		<description>I agree. Great post. In Cut and Paste (The Australian 11/10/06) Edmund Phelps is quoted as saying &quot; well-functioning capitalism must be grounded in all its consequences, not just those called freedoms&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. Great post. In Cut and Paste (The Australian 11/10/06) Edmund Phelps is quoted as saying &#8221; well-functioning capitalism must be grounded in all its consequences, not just those called freedoms&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53503</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/10/11/phelps-versus-friedman/#comment-53503</guid>
		<description>James

Many thanks for this excellent post. It&#039;s very helpful to economically semi-literate readers like me, and I especially love the link back to Adam Smith, morality and society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James</p>
<p>Many thanks for this excellent post. It&#8217;s very helpful to economically semi-literate readers like me, and I especially love the link back to Adam Smith, morality and society.</p>
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