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	<title>Comments on: The Theory of Primate Sentiments: Part One.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/</link>
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		<title>By: meika</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63204</link>
		<dc:creator>meika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63204</guid>
		<description>Jim&#039;s
&lt;blockquote&gt; He is alleged to have threatened Popper with a 
handy found object on one occasion, the &quot;Wittgenstein&#039;s Poker&quot; incident, 
but there is no evidence of modification or enhancement of the poker.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes there was. It was used (modifying) for leverage in a social negotiation. Its just that the poker was the modification to a social situation.

What was the outcome?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim&#8217;s</p>
<blockquote><p> He is alleged to have threatened Popper with a<br />
handy found object on one occasion, the &#8220;Wittgenstein&#8217;s Poker&#8221; incident,<br />
but there is no evidence of modification or enhancement of the poker.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes there was. It was used (modifying) for leverage in a social negotiation. Its just that the poker was the modification to a social situation.</p>
<p>What was the outcome?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Birch</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63184</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63184</guid>
		<description>Apes use tools and will reuse tools that work but even simple modification of naturally occurring tools is rare. Some chimps will trim sticks used for digging out insects but fashioning tools for a purpose is limited.  The use of tools by apes indicates - at times - a borderline level of insight into problems above mere associative learning.

New Caledonian crows have possibly the most advanced tool use of any animal except humans.  The crows manufacture and use complex tools including straight and hooked sticks and complex flat tools made from leaves.  They are able to select correct length sticks from a set with significantly better than random frequencies for a task of removing food from perspex tubes.  Significantly, they are able to do this on first exposure to a novel task, indicating a real level of causal insight into the problem.

None of this compares with the ability of humans, even the very young, to modify found objects and combine materials into purpose-built tools.  This doesn&#039;t tell us much about the Philosophical Investigations issue but we don&#039;t know for sure that Wittgenstein could bind a rock to a stick to make a club.  He is alleged to have threatened Popper with a handy found object on one occasion, the &quot;Wittgenstein&#039;s Poker&quot; incident, but there is no evidence of modification or enhancement of the poker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apes use tools and will reuse tools that work but even simple modification of naturally occurring tools is rare. Some chimps will trim sticks used for digging out insects but fashioning tools for a purpose is limited.  The use of tools by apes indicates &#8211; at times &#8211; a borderline level of insight into problems above mere associative learning.</p>
<p>New Caledonian crows have possibly the most advanced tool use of any animal except humans.  The crows manufacture and use complex tools including straight and hooked sticks and complex flat tools made from leaves.  They are able to select correct length sticks from a set with significantly better than random frequencies for a task of removing food from perspex tubes.  Significantly, they are able to do this on first exposure to a novel task, indicating a real level of causal insight into the problem.</p>
<p>None of this compares with the ability of humans, even the very young, to modify found objects and combine materials into purpose-built tools.  This doesn&#8217;t tell us much about the Philosophical Investigations issue but we don&#8217;t know for sure that Wittgenstein could bind a rock to a stick to make a club.  He is alleged to have threatened Popper with a handy found object on one occasion, the &#8220;Wittgenstein&#8217;s Poker&#8221; incident, but there is no evidence of modification or enhancement of the poker.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63127</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63127</guid>
		<description>You might try a commentary on Wittgenstein, or his Philosophical Investigations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might try a commentary on Wittgenstein, or his Philosophical Investigations.</p>
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		<title>By: meika</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63123</link>
		<dc:creator>meika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63123</guid>
		<description>crows use tools so we&#039;ll be outsourcing script kiddie work to them soon, I guess</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>crows use tools so we&#8217;ll be outsourcing script kiddie work to them soon, I guess</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63117</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63117</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting. When I read Dunbar&#039;s book I kept thinking of Robin Dunbar as a woman.  Of course I wasn&#039;t paying attention to the spelling of his name, but his theory is very much centred on the social work done by women as the agents of the evolution of language - though I never read it as self consciously feminist.  I&#039;ve not read Wolpert, but I&#039;m skeptical.  It seems to me that language is likely to lead conceptual ability.  But then I confess I&#039;m only guessing.  Guess I should go and read the book!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting. When I read Dunbar&#8217;s book I kept thinking of Robin Dunbar as a woman.  Of course I wasn&#8217;t paying attention to the spelling of his name, but his theory is very much centred on the social work done by women as the agents of the evolution of language &#8211; though I never read it as self consciously feminist.  I&#8217;ve not read Wolpert, but I&#8217;m skeptical.  It seems to me that language is likely to lead conceptual ability.  But then I confess I&#8217;m only guessing.  Guess I should go and read the book!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Birch</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63107</guid>
		<description>You might try Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast, by Lewis Wolpert.  On my reading so far, he takes the quite different position, that conceptual ability arose for tool making and use (conferring a massive evolutionary advantage,) and that language arose with conceptual ability.  He brings a rich array of evidence to his arguments, which are not so much about language but about how belief works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might try Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast, by Lewis Wolpert.  On my reading so far, he takes the quite different position, that conceptual ability arose for tool making and use (conferring a massive evolutionary advantage,) and that language arose with conceptual ability.  He brings a rich array of evidence to his arguments, which are not so much about language but about how belief works.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63086</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63086</guid>
		<description>Nicholas, did Buhler&#039;s theory about the levels of language get a mention? He identified three levels
1. Expression, which simply reflects the state of the beast at the time.

2. Signalling, where other members of the species are either wired or have learned to pick up a message from the sound - the  most obvious are warning calls and mating signals.

3. Descriptive. This is where  things get really interesting, because the descriptive function is hard to find in animals, while humans do it all the time.

There is a theory that the descriptive function evolved out of the play of young animals and also their interaction with their mothers (which would include grooming).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas, did Buhler&#8217;s theory about the levels of language get a mention? He identified three levels<br />
1. Expression, which simply reflects the state of the beast at the time.</p>
<p>2. Signalling, where other members of the species are either wired or have learned to pick up a message from the sound &#8211; the  most obvious are warning calls and mating signals.</p>
<p>3. Descriptive. This is where  things get really interesting, because the descriptive function is hard to find in animals, while humans do it all the time.</p>
<p>There is a theory that the descriptive function evolved out of the play of young animals and also their interaction with their mothers (which would include grooming).</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63081</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63081</guid>
		<description>I think it is uncontestable that humans are social creatures, and that we evolved to the top of the tree by specialising in socialising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is uncontestable that humans are social creatures, and that we evolved to the top of the tree by specialising in socialising.</p>
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		<title>By: meika</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63076</link>
		<dc:creator>meika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/11/16/the-theory-of-primate-sentiments-part-one/#comment-63076</guid>
		<description>moving on from grooming to language and culture (gossip by other means) the key thing to remember for our hominin expansion is that we know our species occupies more than one ecological niche (something economists have difficulty understanding because of the grooming games they play in politics with scientifically ignorant lawyers like the Prime Minister John Howard, they get the feedback from them that they are okay, good little lap dog).

Hunting did not lead to big brains because hunting &lt;strong&gt;AND &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;gathering lead to big brains because the division of labour was organised &lt;em&gt;socially&lt;/em&gt;.

(Simplistically thinking it was just hunting would be vey attractive to recidivists like alpha male lawyerly trained politicians rather than scientifically educated leaders)(yes I am trolling).

Once we could organise day to day activities and develop ritual and ceremony to educate the young in handing on social technologies (like Jurkupa) to organise the day to day hunting &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;AND&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; gathering, we had it made.

Because if we could learn AND teach a way of moving across the landscape then we could learn new ways in new places from savanah to jungles to glacial grasslands to the high artic.

Not only that, when could apply the same skills in adaption to the resultant new landscapes that our cultures developed on these &#039;old growth&#039; terrains (agriculture, bulk trade and nomadism being the two big ones) and we had large numbers of peoples settling or moving around these new  landscapes become the terrain for new movements and so new social landscapes.

For example the marketplace, the monastery, the big house, the temple, and the coffee house will come, and on top of them we will get stock markets and then weird differential schemes like the options market. Each more removed from the world of dirt beneath our feet. Virtual reality is a pure form of the all to human adaption of social negotiation/creation of multiple niches by one species.

All because we are the only animal that has socially negotiated, and socially maintains through a cultural system best described I think by &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Douglas&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mary Douglas&lt;/a&gt; which both supplies and maintains oppositoinally defined and rejecting thought styles which gives this social system the robustness to maintain a diversity of options in social circulation (ie some will appear non-rational to economists at certain times) but without which there would be no economy to study at all.

The economic landscape is a derivative (however powerfully conditioning) of the social abilities we have to organise the day to day activities and be able to hand them on, this social ability (oh so much more than grooming) is itself a derivative of our basic physiological upbringing in an ecology.

As ANIMALS. A psychological fact reduced by the religiously biased to &lt;em&gt;soul&lt;/em&gt;.

but it is good to see economists start looking at these things. Lazy lap dogs.

Now where&#039;s my dole check, I though I&#039;d left it in my copy of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Prince&lt;/a&gt;, but...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>moving on from grooming to language and culture (gossip by other means) the key thing to remember for our hominin expansion is that we know our species occupies more than one ecological niche (something economists have difficulty understanding because of the grooming games they play in politics with scientifically ignorant lawyers like the Prime Minister John Howard, they get the feedback from them that they are okay, good little lap dog).</p>
<p>Hunting did not lead to big brains because hunting <strong>AND </strong>gathering lead to big brains because the division of labour was organised <em>socially</em>.</p>
<p>(Simplistically thinking it was just hunting would be vey attractive to recidivists like alpha male lawyerly trained politicians rather than scientifically educated leaders)(yes I am trolling).</p>
<p>Once we could organise day to day activities and develop ritual and ceremony to educate the young in handing on social technologies (like Jurkupa) to organise the day to day hunting <strong><em>AND</em></strong> gathering, we had it made.</p>
<p>Because if we could learn AND teach a way of moving across the landscape then we could learn new ways in new places from savanah to jungles to glacial grasslands to the high artic.</p>
<p>Not only that, when could apply the same skills in adaption to the resultant new landscapes that our cultures developed on these &#8216;old growth&#8217; terrains (agriculture, bulk trade and nomadism being the two big ones) and we had large numbers of peoples settling or moving around these new  landscapes become the terrain for new movements and so new social landscapes.</p>
<p>For example the marketplace, the monastery, the big house, the temple, and the coffee house will come, and on top of them we will get stock markets and then weird differential schemes like the options market. Each more removed from the world of dirt beneath our feet. Virtual reality is a pure form of the all to human adaption of social negotiation/creation of multiple niches by one species.</p>
<p>All because we are the only animal that has socially negotiated, and socially maintains through a cultural system best described I think by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Douglas">Mary Douglas</a> which both supplies and maintains oppositoinally defined and rejecting thought styles which gives this social system the robustness to maintain a diversity of options in social circulation (ie some will appear non-rational to economists at certain times) but without which there would be no economy to study at all.</p>
<p>The economic landscape is a derivative (however powerfully conditioning) of the social abilities we have to organise the day to day activities and be able to hand them on, this social ability (oh so much more than grooming) is itself a derivative of our basic physiological upbringing in an ecology.</p>
<p>As ANIMALS. A psychological fact reduced by the religiously biased to <em>soul</em>.</p>
<p>but it is good to see economists start looking at these things. Lazy lap dogs.</p>
<p>Now where&#8217;s my dole check, I though I&#8217;d left it in my copy of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli">The Prince</a>, but&#8230;</p>
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