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	<title>Comments on: Expert political judgment and the dream team</title>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-71883</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 06:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-71883</guid>
		<description>DW, I&#039;ve just read the Louis Menand piece you link to and it&#039;s bloody marvellous.  Up there with Wisdom of Crowds for stuff to think about.  And may I pose this thought to you.  I know you are a Popper fan but the material re-inforces my own view that the important thing to talk about in methodology of science is not the line of demarcation between science and non science.  (It would be useful to develop and enforce it if one could draw that line, but one can&#039;t.  The project was a failure, and so on Popperian grounds the Popperians should move on - as I gather from Rafe&#039;s comments he has). 

But what methodological discussion and awareness might be able to do is to give us more insight into our own and our own scientific cultures&#039; foibles as we attempt to &#039;do science&#039; (by which I mean to include social science and disciplined discussion more generally).  If this is the case then as well motivated as Popper&#039;s search for a criterion is, and as useful as some of his other work has been - for instance pointing to falsification rather than confirmation - it might actually be counterproductive.  

I recall one weblog I visited for a while which had a line from Karl Popper emblazoned on its headpiece something along the lines of &quot;We might disagree but I might learn from you and you might learn from me&quot;.  Trouble was it was a fractious and arrogant weblog in my opinion.  Karl - one of the worlds great hedgehogs - is supposed to have had a similar problem.  One person suggested that his great political tome should really have been called &quot;The Open Society: by one of its Enemies&quot; !  A good line n&#039;est pas?

I don&#039;t say this out of disrespect to Popper. As the Menand article to which you linked argued (and as I was thinking as I read it before it said it) hedgehoggery tends to characterise a lot of people of great achievement.  

Still there you have it - some thoughts preliminary to a post that I might never manage on the subject (but I&#039;m hoping to!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DW, I&#8217;ve just read the Louis Menand piece you link to and it&#8217;s bloody marvellous.  Up there with Wisdom of Crowds for stuff to think about.  And may I pose this thought to you.  I know you are a Popper fan but the material re-inforces my own view that the important thing to talk about in methodology of science is not the line of demarcation between science and non science.  (It would be useful to develop and enforce it if one could draw that line, but one can&#8217;t.  The project was a failure, and so on Popperian grounds the Popperians should move on &#8211; as I gather from Rafe&#8217;s comments he has). </p>
<p>But what methodological discussion and awareness might be able to do is to give us more insight into our own and our own scientific cultures&#8217; foibles as we attempt to &#8216;do science&#8217; (by which I mean to include social science and disciplined discussion more generally).  If this is the case then as well motivated as Popper&#8217;s search for a criterion is, and as useful as some of his other work has been &#8211; for instance pointing to falsification rather than confirmation &#8211; it might actually be counterproductive.  </p>
<p>I recall one weblog I visited for a while which had a line from Karl Popper emblazoned on its headpiece something along the lines of &#8220;We might disagree but I might learn from you and you might learn from me&#8221;.  Trouble was it was a fractious and arrogant weblog in my opinion.  Karl &#8211; one of the worlds great hedgehogs &#8211; is supposed to have had a similar problem.  One person suggested that his great political tome should really have been called &#8220;The Open Society: by one of its Enemies&#8221; !  A good line n&#8217;est pas?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t say this out of disrespect to Popper. As the Menand article to which you linked argued (and as I was thinking as I read it before it said it) hedgehoggery tends to characterise a lot of people of great achievement.  </p>
<p>Still there you have it &#8211; some thoughts preliminary to a post that I might never manage on the subject (but I&#8217;m hoping to!)</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69657</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69657</guid>
		<description>Ramsey&#039;s hopelessly mislead by his own foaming at the mouth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ramsey&#8217;s hopelessly mislead by his own foaming at the mouth.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69652</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 00:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69652</guid>
		<description>We can&#039;t test counterfactual predictions - Crean would have won in 2004, Beazley in 2007, etc. - so they don&#039;t count for much. Brent&#039;s prediction on Latham earns him some points, especially when you consider that someone as experienced as Alan Ramsay was likening Iron Mark to a Mack truck bearing down on a stupified Howard (though he changed his mind pretty soon as Latham&#039;s weirdness quickly manifested itsef). But I would want to see a few more good ones before pronouncing Brent the New Oracle. A useful website, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can&#8217;t test counterfactual predictions &#8211; Crean would have won in 2004, Beazley in 2007, etc. &#8211; so they don&#8217;t count for much. Brent&#8217;s prediction on Latham earns him some points, especially when you consider that someone as experienced as Alan Ramsay was likening Iron Mark to a Mack truck bearing down on a stupified Howard (though he changed his mind pretty soon as Latham&#8217;s weirdness quickly manifested itsef). But I would want to see a few more good ones before pronouncing Brent the New Oracle. A useful website, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaymus</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69316</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaymus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 08:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69316</guid>
		<description>hey I like kevins new hat...I want one just like it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey I like kevins new hat&#8230;I want one just like it</p>
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		<title>By: D W Griffiths</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69289</link>
		<dc:creator>D W Griffiths</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 06:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69289</guid>
		<description>Peter Brent is indeed a beacon of calm good sense. Hail, for instance, this Mumble.com.au post (&lt;a href=&quot;http://mumble.com.au/index_oldish25.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Kelly View&lt;/a&gt;):

&lt;blockquote&gt;Paul Kelly in the Oz on what Labor &#039;must&#039; do to win next year - be proactive, seize the agenda, look to the future, fight the ideas battle, muscle up and so on ... The ALP must do bits of all those things, but in the end whether they did or not is determined, with hindsight, by the election result ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Perfect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Brent is indeed a beacon of calm good sense. Hail, for instance, this Mumble.com.au post (<a href="http://mumble.com.au/index_oldish25.html">The Kelly View</a>):</p>
<blockquote><p>Paul Kelly in the Oz on what Labor &#8216;must&#8217; do to win next year &#8211; be proactive, seize the agenda, look to the future, fight the ideas battle, muscle up and so on &#8230; The ALP must do bits of all those things, but in the end whether they did or not is determined, with hindsight, by the election result &#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Perfect.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69265</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 05:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69265</guid>
		<description>I have just come across &lt;a href=&quot;http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=your%20say&amp;subclass=general&amp;story_id=537714&amp;category=Opinion&amp;m=12&amp;y=2006&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peter Brent&#039;s column on the changeover&lt;/a&gt;.  At least based on his own factual claims which I have no reason to doubt, the MSM should be beating a path to his door as the person who got it right on Latham all along - a beacon of calm amid a storm of febrile media hysteria. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;A few days before the 2003 caucus vote that installed Latham as federal Labor leader, I posted, on my little website, estimates of the chances each prospective Labor leader had of taking their party to victory the following year. Unlike most, I believed Simon Crean, if he kept the job, stood a fair chance of defeating John Howard - one in three. Beazley, I reckoned, would have two chances in three of winning an election and Rudd almost as much three in five. Latham I gave one chance in 11 because his every utterance showed he had no idea about what makes people change their vote. He wanted to out-Howard Howard.

Throughout the next 10 months I stuck to my prediction that, come polling day, Latham would take his party backwards, which was what happened. Pardon my trumpet-blowing, but comparisons can be illuminating and we are now in the identical position in the three-year cycle.

Beazley was the Labor Party&#039;s best chance for 2007, with Rudd the next most likely. You wouldn&#039;t know it from the almost criminally incompetent journalistic coverage, but opinion polls over the last six months pointed to a federal Labor victory. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have just come across <a href="http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=your%20say&#038;subclass=general&#038;story_id=537714&#038;category=Opinion&#038;m=12&#038;y=2006">Peter Brent&#8217;s column on the changeover</a>.  At least based on his own factual claims which I have no reason to doubt, the MSM should be beating a path to his door as the person who got it right on Latham all along &#8211; a beacon of calm amid a storm of febrile media hysteria. </p>
<blockquote><p>A few days before the 2003 caucus vote that installed Latham as federal Labor leader, I posted, on my little website, estimates of the chances each prospective Labor leader had of taking their party to victory the following year. Unlike most, I believed Simon Crean, if he kept the job, stood a fair chance of defeating John Howard &#8211; one in three. Beazley, I reckoned, would have two chances in three of winning an election and Rudd almost as much three in five. Latham I gave one chance in 11 because his every utterance showed he had no idea about what makes people change their vote. He wanted to out-Howard Howard.</p>
<p>Throughout the next 10 months I stuck to my prediction that, come polling day, Latham would take his party backwards, which was what happened. Pardon my trumpet-blowing, but comparisons can be illuminating and we are now in the identical position in the three-year cycle.</p>
<p>Beazley was the Labor Party&#8217;s best chance for 2007, with Rudd the next most likely. You wouldn&#8217;t know it from the almost criminally incompetent journalistic coverage, but opinion polls over the last six months pointed to a federal Labor victory. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69241</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69241</guid>
		<description>Nicholas, I think (22%) the consensus among shrewd and hard-headed thinkers on either side of Parliament is as you have said.

As a general matter of course, otherwise, it is amazing how poorly we human beings communicate, even in direct conversation.  

Take the innocuous two sentences in the first comment above - two sentences typed in daily on blogs all over the place - and straight into the opening gambit confusion and uncertainty are the order.  What comes after that compounds it all into a verifiable state of madness.  (Ah.. no?  What do you mean, &lt;i&gt;how&lt;/i&gt; verifiable?)  We really do talk amongst each other in our own heads, for much of our lives. 

And if you believe that, and anything else written here or elsewhere, along with this, you&#039;re crazy.  Me, I&#039;m having a party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas, I think (22%) the consensus among shrewd and hard-headed thinkers on either side of Parliament is as you have said.</p>
<p>As a general matter of course, otherwise, it is amazing how poorly we human beings communicate, even in direct conversation.  </p>
<p>Take the innocuous two sentences in the first comment above &#8211; two sentences typed in daily on blogs all over the place &#8211; and straight into the opening gambit confusion and uncertainty are the order.  What comes after that compounds it all into a verifiable state of madness.  (Ah.. no?  What do you mean, <i>how</i> verifiable?)  We really do talk amongst each other in our own heads, for much of our lives. </p>
<p>And if you believe that, and anything else written here or elsewhere, along with this, you&#8217;re crazy.  Me, I&#8217;m having a party.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69238</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69238</guid>
		<description>Robert,

Instead of &quot;I think most people would agree with what you&#039;ve said&quot; I think (I&#039;m 65% certain) that you should have said &quot;the consensus among shrewd and hard-headed thinkers on either side of Parliament is as you have said&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>Instead of &#8220;I think most people would agree with what you&#8217;ve said&#8221; I think (I&#8217;m 65% certain) that you should have said &#8220;the consensus among shrewd and hard-headed thinkers on either side of Parliament is as you have said&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69229</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 03:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2006/12/10/suspend-judgment-on-the-dream-team/#comment-69229</guid>
		<description>Good points, D W Griffiths.  I think most people would agree with what you&#039;ve said. 

And there we have it. Fertile ground for the imaginitive.  In just those simple words, which sound ok, don&#039;t they, what has to be objectified?  Which &#039;points&#039; are good, (90% of them, if so, which ones?, and of those, to which degree), and of those points, against what or which other points are they to be compared?  And who and how are those comparative points rated?  Of the &#039;most people&#039;, which most people?  Most people who read it?  Most people in Australia, the world?  In Mozambigue?  Agree to which percentage?  Compared with what?  And what and where is it that &#039;you said&#039; it, having made quotes. Are they agreeing with what you&#039;re saying about the quotes, or about the quotes themselves, or about your assessments of them?  And so on.

What happens, then, when there&#039;s a whole op-ed piece to go through, or even just a mad commenter suffering the odd (very odd, say, 93%, against the normal type of odd) grammatical error?

It&#039;s a great idea (12% - 86%, depending, see above), but you&#039;d want to have to love numbers (0% - 100%, depending).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, D W Griffiths.  I think most people would agree with what you&#8217;ve said. </p>
<p>And there we have it. Fertile ground for the imaginitive.  In just those simple words, which sound ok, don&#8217;t they, what has to be objectified?  Which &#8216;points&#8217; are good, (90% of them, if so, which ones?, and of those, to which degree), and of those points, against what or which other points are they to be compared?  And who and how are those comparative points rated?  Of the &#8216;most people&#8217;, which most people?  Most people who read it?  Most people in Australia, the world?  In Mozambigue?  Agree to which percentage?  Compared with what?  And what and where is it that &#8216;you said&#8217; it, having made quotes. Are they agreeing with what you&#8217;re saying about the quotes, or about the quotes themselves, or about your assessments of them?  And so on.</p>
<p>What happens, then, when there&#8217;s a whole op-ed piece to go through, or even just a mad commenter suffering the odd (very odd, say, 93%, against the normal type of odd) grammatical error?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a great idea (12% &#8211; 86%, depending, see above), but you&#8217;d want to have to love numbers (0% &#8211; 100%, depending).</p>
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