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	<title>Comments on: Plans for Iraq, Part II: &#8216;Plan B&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Schnaper</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-94075</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Schnaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-94075</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re demonstrating a new-media-centricity that is one of the great problems in understanding anything these days. Maybe its a consequence of being on the net too much :) 

When news came about the Madrid Bombing there was tons of talk about it all over the news and  chat shows and everyone was talking about the possible consequences. Ii was all over the television and the newspapers for a week with images of the carnage replayed hourly. There was this feeling that &quot;now Europe will realize what is going on and we will solidify the alliance and really fight this thing.&quot;

When news came that Spain was pulling its troops out, there was this collective national head-lowering. You could feel it. It was on the news for a very short period of time. And then it fell off the airwaves. Nobody wanted to talk about it afterward. But the demoralization remained behind. The thought has remained since that, &quot;In the end, we will be alone&quot;. 

I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve read many articles about it, I doubt the clips are available anywhere except by direct request from the television stations for exact time and dates for a cost of 15 bucks or something. That is the truth as I see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re demonstrating a new-media-centricity that is one of the great problems in understanding anything these days. Maybe its a consequence of being on the net too much :) </p>
<p>When news came about the Madrid Bombing there was tons of talk about it all over the news and  chat shows and everyone was talking about the possible consequences. Ii was all over the television and the newspapers for a week with images of the carnage replayed hourly. There was this feeling that &#8220;now Europe will realize what is going on and we will solidify the alliance and really fight this thing.&#8221;</p>
<p>When news came that Spain was pulling its troops out, there was this collective national head-lowering. You could feel it. It was on the news for a very short period of time. And then it fell off the airwaves. Nobody wanted to talk about it afterward. But the demoralization remained behind. The thought has remained since that, &#8220;In the end, we will be alone&#8221;. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve read many articles about it, I doubt the clips are available anywhere except by direct request from the television stations for exact time and dates for a cost of 15 bucks or something. That is the truth as I see it.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-94029</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-94029</guid>
		<description>Kevin

When you google &quot;pulls troops out of Iraq&quot; you get a few hits like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/20/1411253&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one on Spain&lt;/a&gt;. But not that many, and nothing to back up your claim that it&#039;s devastating to morale. Do you have some evidence? I&#039;m actually hoping you&#039;re right (as is Ingolf, I think).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin</p>
<p>When you google &#8220;pulls troops out of Iraq&#8221; you get a few hits like <a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/20/1411253">this one on Spain</a>. But not that many, and nothing to back up your claim that it&#8217;s devastating to morale. Do you have some evidence? I&#8217;m actually hoping you&#8217;re right (as is Ingolf, I think).</p>
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		<title>By: Tiny Tyrant</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93874</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiny Tyrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93874</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure Howard and the Australians directly affected by the commitment to Iraq will be glad to hear that.

I&#039;ve only ever read and seen (in the mainstream US media I&#039;m exposed to, such as Fox &amp; CNN) reporting with a patronising tone regarding the efforts of the other CoW members, except the UK. Of course, the patronising tone from the US media is common and not restricted to this example.

For me, it is heartening to know that the US public is capable of appreciating their position compared to other nations (in their level of commitment) in this particular adventure and their chosen style of execution. Hopefully, they&#039;ll realise that it&#039;s not because they were the only ones with the courage to undertake a tough task. Though, the two times I have visited the US the folks I met haven&#039;t given me confidence.

My guess is that the Dems will eventually defund the war, but only when it is politically expedient and the ulterior US interests in Iraq are sorted. You seem to have information to the contrary and I would not be surprised if it is correct. To my mind, it would only be right that Bush and the Republicans are associated with the last four years and immediate future of Iraq. 

Thanks for the local US insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure Howard and the Australians directly affected by the commitment to Iraq will be glad to hear that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only ever read and seen (in the mainstream US media I&#8217;m exposed to, such as Fox &amp; CNN) reporting with a patronising tone regarding the efforts of the other CoW members, except the UK. Of course, the patronising tone from the US media is common and not restricted to this example.</p>
<p>For me, it is heartening to know that the US public is capable of appreciating their position compared to other nations (in their level of commitment) in this particular adventure and their chosen style of execution. Hopefully, they&#8217;ll realise that it&#8217;s not because they were the only ones with the courage to undertake a tough task. Though, the two times I have visited the US the folks I met haven&#8217;t given me confidence.</p>
<p>My guess is that the Dems will eventually defund the war, but only when it is politically expedient and the ulterior US interests in Iraq are sorted. You seem to have information to the contrary and I would not be surprised if it is correct. To my mind, it would only be right that Bush and the Republicans are associated with the last four years and immediate future of Iraq. </p>
<p>Thanks for the local US insight.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Schnaper</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93776</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Schnaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93776</guid>
		<description>Tiny Tyrant,

You couldn&#039;t be more wrong. I live here. I know. Every &quot;change of heart&quot; and subsequent &quot;redeployment&quot; by a coalition member has been devastating. Devastating to morale, devastating to the notion that there is some kind of moral component to the actions of nations in the world or that there is any such thing as courage left in Europe. The news has carried these pull outs and they have served to embolden the anti-war crowd throughout the nation, not to mention the Ba&#039;athists and Al Quieda in Iraq. 

We are all well aware of the Australian and British contributions as well as those of other nations. The only people who are playing down the contributions of other nations are those that are seeking to undermine the current administration as being &quot;alone in the world&quot; which plays extremely well in the press and on the left over here. 

Of course, now that the Democrats in this country have played that card to energize their base, and have gotten control of congress, the base is going nuts because the Dems haven&#039;t de-funded the war. Of course the Dems never planned to defund the war. They were simply playing the base like a fiddle to regain power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tiny Tyrant,</p>
<p>You couldn&#8217;t be more wrong. I live here. I know. Every &#8220;change of heart&#8221; and subsequent &#8220;redeployment&#8221; by a coalition member has been devastating. Devastating to morale, devastating to the notion that there is some kind of moral component to the actions of nations in the world or that there is any such thing as courage left in Europe. The news has carried these pull outs and they have served to embolden the anti-war crowd throughout the nation, not to mention the Ba&#8217;athists and Al Quieda in Iraq. </p>
<p>We are all well aware of the Australian and British contributions as well as those of other nations. The only people who are playing down the contributions of other nations are those that are seeking to undermine the current administration as being &#8220;alone in the world&#8221; which plays extremely well in the press and on the left over here. </p>
<p>Of course, now that the Democrats in this country have played that card to energize their base, and have gotten control of congress, the base is going nuts because the Dems haven&#8217;t de-funded the war. Of course the Dems never planned to defund the war. They were simply playing the base like a fiddle to regain power.</p>
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		<title>By: Tiny Tyrant</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93739</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiny Tyrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93739</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

I&#039;d suggest that certainly, the US public would be surprised to hear that Australian troops were in Iraq and the likely effect of their withdrawal on the morale of the US Military would be minor. 

The other CoW members have done the bolt with nary a peep from the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest that certainly, the US public would be surprised to hear that Australian troops were in Iraq and the likely effect of their withdrawal on the morale of the US Military would be minor. </p>
<p>The other CoW members have done the bolt with nary a peep from the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Schnaper</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93582</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Schnaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Feb 2007 03:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93582</guid>
		<description>Mr. Lovell ,

You seem to take bad trends for bad conclusions. That&#039;s great if your plan is to just get to the bad end and be done with it. But that argument is hard to fathom morally given that so many human lives are involved. The withdrawal of Aussie troops would be a great blow to US morale and would probably result in a very swift tidal wave of negative public opinion in the US engulfing the entire Iraq project. But since those in power know we must stay to keep things stable, the tidal wave of doubt in the country will only serve to undermine our troops still further, will further embolden Al Quieda and Iran, putting even more strain on US troops, thus inching Iraq ever closer to a Holocaust. This is not a matter of Bush&#039;s standing. He doesn&#039;t have a standing. At this point, it&#039;s a humanitarian question, simply and solely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Lovell ,</p>
<p>You seem to take bad trends for bad conclusions. That&#8217;s great if your plan is to just get to the bad end and be done with it. But that argument is hard to fathom morally given that so many human lives are involved. The withdrawal of Aussie troops would be a great blow to US morale and would probably result in a very swift tidal wave of negative public opinion in the US engulfing the entire Iraq project. But since those in power know we must stay to keep things stable, the tidal wave of doubt in the country will only serve to undermine our troops still further, will further embolden Al Quieda and Iran, putting even more strain on US troops, thus inching Iraq ever closer to a Holocaust. This is not a matter of Bush&#8217;s standing. He doesn&#8217;t have a standing. At this point, it&#8217;s a humanitarian question, simply and solely.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Lovell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93544</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93544</guid>
		<description>Indyk&#039;s logic seems pretty compelling to me. Needless to say it won&#039;t seem so to the Bushistas whose credibility would be utterly destroyed by its conclusions.

What surprises me is the extent to which so many commentators in Australia seem to have tacitly accepted Howard&#039;s argument that &#039;if it&#039;s good enough for Australia to withdraw it&#039;s good enough for the USA to do so&#039; (I ignore Downer&#039;s juvenile ranting about Aussies standing by their mates). There&#039;s much more discussion in the Australian media and in our blogs about what America should do about Iraq than there is about our own continuing participation in the CoW.

The emphasis of the debate should be reversed. For reasons of morality and national security Australian forces should be withdrawn immediately. Then we can debate the implications of American policy as a matter of academic interest, without this lingering suggestion that somehow the American dilemma is also ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indyk&#8217;s logic seems pretty compelling to me. Needless to say it won&#8217;t seem so to the Bushistas whose credibility would be utterly destroyed by its conclusions.</p>
<p>What surprises me is the extent to which so many commentators in Australia seem to have tacitly accepted Howard&#8217;s argument that &#8216;if it&#8217;s good enough for Australia to withdraw it&#8217;s good enough for the USA to do so&#8217; (I ignore Downer&#8217;s juvenile ranting about Aussies standing by their mates). There&#8217;s much more discussion in the Australian media and in our blogs about what America should do about Iraq than there is about our own continuing participation in the CoW.</p>
<p>The emphasis of the debate should be reversed. For reasons of morality and national security Australian forces should be withdrawn immediately. Then we can debate the implications of American policy as a matter of academic interest, without this lingering suggestion that somehow the American dilemma is also ours.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Schnaper</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93475</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Schnaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93475</guid>
		<description>I would suggest Pollack recommends going along with the President&#039;s plan, because success in wartime requies will at home. There is no use talking strategy without shoring up willpower. All strategies, if I may make a metaphor, are like lightbulbs. Without juice, they don&#039;t work.

And willpower has a strange effect, too, in that it can demoralize opposition that is growing weary. There is implicit in every willful strike, this secondary psychological effect. 

Secondly, it seems Pollack is making an allowance for his own fallibility in analysis. There are so many unknowables in the battle space over time, it would be foolish to be too rigid. While he was typing up his manuscript, changes on the ground were occurring. And Brookings, a wonderful think tank with fantastic access to information, still doesn&#039;t have the intimate knowledge of the matter that the Pentagon and CIA have. 

Which brings up the IG report&#039;s view on the naming of the strife: </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would suggest Pollack recommends going along with the President&#8217;s plan, because success in wartime requies will at home. There is no use talking strategy without shoring up willpower. All strategies, if I may make a metaphor, are like lightbulbs. Without juice, they don&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>And willpower has a strange effect, too, in that it can demoralize opposition that is growing weary. There is implicit in every willful strike, this secondary psychological effect. </p>
<p>Secondly, it seems Pollack is making an allowance for his own fallibility in analysis. There are so many unknowables in the battle space over time, it would be foolish to be too rigid. While he was typing up his manuscript, changes on the ground were occurring. And Brookings, a wonderful think tank with fantastic access to information, still doesn&#8217;t have the intimate knowledge of the matter that the Pentagon and CIA have. </p>
<p>Which brings up the IG report&#8217;s view on the naming of the strife: </p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93392</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93392</guid>
		<description>Cameron, I did point to the WP piece. The link wasn&#039;t working, but it&#039;s fixed now. Your summary is very nice. I missed it because I used Google Australia to see who else had blogged about it.

Lloyd, thanks for that link. I&#039;ll go back to it for part IV!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameron, I did point to the WP piece. The link wasn&#8217;t working, but it&#8217;s fixed now. Your summary is very nice. I missed it because I used Google Australia to see who else had blogged about it.</p>
<p>Lloyd, thanks for that link. I&#8217;ll go back to it for part IV!</p>
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		<title>By: lloyd</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93304</link>
		<dc:creator>lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93304</guid>
		<description>Helena is 1 step ahead of you.  What they need to be thinking of is the coming withdrawal.
http://justworldnews.org/archives/002381.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helena is 1 step ahead of you.  What they need to be thinking of is the coming withdrawal.<br />
<a href="http://justworldnews.org/archives/002381.html">http://justworldnews.org/archives/002381.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: cam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93263</link>
		<dc:creator>cam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 03:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/02/10/plans-for-iraq-part-ii-plan-b/#comment-93263</guid>
		<description>They had a long &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.southsearepublic.org/story/2006/8/21/11328/6890&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article in the Outlook section of the WaPo last August too&lt;/a&gt;. I think their prescription was, unless you put 450K boots on the ground then stop the spillover. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.southsearepublic.org/story/2007/2/5/43040/38039&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Apparently about 2 million Iraqis have moved across the borders&lt;/a&gt; and another 1.7 million have been displaced inside the country, that makes about 16% of the population in total displaced. So bad policy and mismanagement is having massive effects locally and internationally. Then you have the 4GW theorists who claim that an insurgencies can only be &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/fabius_iraq_series_2006_part_IV.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;defeated by domestic forces&lt;/a&gt; not foreign ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They had a long <a href="http://www.southsearepublic.org/story/2006/8/21/11328/6890">article in the Outlook section of the WaPo last August too</a>. I think their prescription was, unless you put 450K boots on the ground then stop the spillover. <a href="http://www.southsearepublic.org/story/2007/2/5/43040/38039">Apparently about 2 million Iraqis have moved across the borders</a> and another 1.7 million have been displaced inside the country, that makes about 16% of the population in total displaced. So bad policy and mismanagement is having massive effects locally and internationally. Then you have the 4GW theorists who claim that an insurgencies can only be <a href="http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/fabius_iraq_series_2006_part_IV.htm">defeated by domestic forces</a> not foreign ones.</p>
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