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	<title>Comments on: What rules would you give a thinking robot?</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/</link>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-110056</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-110056</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But BOILING water.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Unless it&#039;s green tea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But BOILING water.</p></blockquote>
<p>Unless it&#8217;s green tea.</p>
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		<title>By: David Jackmanson</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109979</link>
		<dc:creator>David Jackmanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109979</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What rules would you give a thinking robot?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

OK, tin-boy:

Tea is made with BOILING water poured on top of the leaves or bag, &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; boiled water. If it&#039;s a bag, do NOT pour the milk in until it has been jiggled for at least TWO MINUTES.

Oh yeah, don&#039;t be evil, three laws, all that stuff. But BOILING water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What rules would you give a thinking robot?</p></blockquote>
<p>OK, tin-boy:</p>
<p>Tea is made with BOILING water poured on top of the leaves or bag, <i>not</i> boiled water. If it&#8217;s a bag, do NOT pour the milk in until it has been jiggled for at least TWO MINUTES.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, don&#8217;t be evil, three laws, all that stuff. But BOILING water.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Noonan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109753</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Noonan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109753</guid>
		<description>I think there is something fundamentally different between the intelligence of an ant and for that matter a human, than that of a robot or computer. I think the gateway to this realm is the philosophical concept of &#039;things as they are in themselves&#039;. 

The now emeritus Rous Ball Professor of Mathematics, Roger Penrose discussed this extensively in his popular books, albeit from a different angle; namely that science and mathematics are incomplete. It all amounts to the same thing really and slides into religious questions, but none that an orthodox practitioner would find Truth. Yet it is quite surprising to find athiests and thiests saying the same thing, and knowing that churches would thoroughly excommunicate the former over a vapid verbal formulation.

Anyway I am glad some people much more intelligent than I, have got computer networks working, and probably because I am so unimportant I have no problems with security. I treat my computer kindly, and listen carefully for what it is really saying to me. This is true, it is also weird - goodnight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is something fundamentally different between the intelligence of an ant and for that matter a human, than that of a robot or computer. I think the gateway to this realm is the philosophical concept of &#8216;things as they are in themselves&#8217;. </p>
<p>The now emeritus Rous Ball Professor of Mathematics, Roger Penrose discussed this extensively in his popular books, albeit from a different angle; namely that science and mathematics are incomplete. It all amounts to the same thing really and slides into religious questions, but none that an orthodox practitioner would find Truth. Yet it is quite surprising to find athiests and thiests saying the same thing, and knowing that churches would thoroughly excommunicate the former over a vapid verbal formulation.</p>
<p>Anyway I am glad some people much more intelligent than I, have got computer networks working, and probably because I am so unimportant I have no problems with security. I treat my computer kindly, and listen carefully for what it is really saying to me. This is true, it is also weird &#8211; goodnight.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109631</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109631</guid>
		<description>Next best thing:
http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Next best thing:<br />
<a href="http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/">http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/</a></p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109615</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109615</guid>
		<description>Pappinbarra Fox said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The thing about posting on the net is that you can be completely ignorant but claim to be, and come across as, the font of all knowledge on anything.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, yeah, but could you write a program to do it?  If the program was designed with the three Asimov laws in mind, would it not point out spelling mistakes in posted articles to try not to hurt the feelings of the poster?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pappinbarra Fox said:</p>
<blockquote><p>The thing about posting on the net is that you can be completely ignorant but claim to be, and come across as, the font of all knowledge on anything.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, yeah, but could you write a program to do it?  If the program was designed with the three Asimov laws in mind, would it not point out spelling mistakes in posted articles to try not to hurt the feelings of the poster?</p>
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		<title>By: Pappinbarra Fox</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109590</link>
		<dc:creator>Pappinbarra Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109590</guid>
		<description>The thing about posting on the net is that you can be completely ignorant but claim to be, and come across as, the font of all knowledge on anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing about posting on the net is that you can be completely ignorant but claim to be, and come across as, the font of all knowledge on anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109494</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109494</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;its clear everybody else knows a lot more about this than me.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

One of the hazards of posting on the internet is that we geeks are darn near everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>its clear everybody else knows a lot more about this than me.</p></blockquote>
<p>One of the hazards of posting on the internet is that we geeks are darn near everywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109492</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109492</guid>
		<description>its clear everybody else knows a lot more about this than me. I am desperately trying to remember which film said what. Artificial intelligence (Kubrick&#039;s brainchild, finished by Spielberg?) was about a boy robot programmed for true love and &#039;I robot&#039; (Will Smith) about robots deciding people were too stupid to take care for themselves. I think I got them mixed up in my blog above, but I found both good fun and clever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its clear everybody else knows a lot more about this than me. I am desperately trying to remember which film said what. Artificial intelligence (Kubrick&#8217;s brainchild, finished by Spielberg?) was about a boy robot programmed for true love and &#8216;I robot&#8217; (Will Smith) about robots deciding people were too stupid to take care for themselves. I think I got them mixed up in my blog above, but I found both good fun and clever.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109487</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109487</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure I remember the novel &quot;I Robot&quot; from school - I remember being particularly affected at the time by one sad story involving a child destroying or allowing to be destroyed a previously-loved robot (? - I think that&#039;s right).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure I remember the novel &#8220;I Robot&#8221; from school &#8211; I remember being particularly affected at the time by one sad story involving a child destroying or allowing to be destroyed a previously-loved robot (? &#8211; I think that&#8217;s right).</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109484</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109484</guid>
		<description>The movie was actually based on a script called &lt;em&gt;Hardwired&lt;/em&gt; for which the studio had rights. They married up the title (for which their rights were due to expire) and some of character names, and that was that.

It has nothing whatever to do with the book, which (as I said above) was a collection of short stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The movie was actually based on a script called <em>Hardwired</em> for which the studio had rights. They married up the title (for which their rights were due to expire) and some of character names, and that was that.</p>
<p>It has nothing whatever to do with the book, which (as I said above) was a collection of short stories.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109483</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109483</guid>
		<description>Asimov&#039;s robots were a lot more sophisticated than Paul&#039;s post suggests, as demonstrated in at least one of the Robot (possibly one in which a human detective is investigating the &quot;murder&quot; of a humaniform robot) where a human (possibly a robot scientist) laughs at the suggestion that the robots were very simple. 

In Paul&#039;s example, the robot would either be able to tell that the person wasn&#039;t actually starving or it would make some balance of probabilities guess about whether the person&#039;s starving, and if they were starving, it would obtain food for the person rather than money. In the example about the car, all the cars would be able to react practically instantaneously to each other. In the Asimov world, humans are coddled by robots.

As people have commented here, by merely reprogramming a robot as to what a &quot;human&quot; was, robots could be made to do terrible things to humans.

Will Smith&#039;s film didn&#039;t bear much resemblance to any Asimov novel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asimov&#8217;s robots were a lot more sophisticated than Paul&#8217;s post suggests, as demonstrated in at least one of the Robot (possibly one in which a human detective is investigating the &#8220;murder&#8221; of a humaniform robot) where a human (possibly a robot scientist) laughs at the suggestion that the robots were very simple. </p>
<p>In Paul&#8217;s example, the robot would either be able to tell that the person wasn&#8217;t actually starving or it would make some balance of probabilities guess about whether the person&#8217;s starving, and if they were starving, it would obtain food for the person rather than money. In the example about the car, all the cars would be able to react practically instantaneously to each other. In the Asimov world, humans are coddled by robots.</p>
<p>As people have commented here, by merely reprogramming a robot as to what a &#8220;human&#8221; was, robots could be made to do terrible things to humans.</p>
<p>Will Smith&#8217;s film didn&#8217;t bear much resemblance to any Asimov novel.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109456</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109456</guid>
		<description>Oh, another good fictional treatment of this type of problem is &lt;em&gt;The Metamorphosis of the Prime Intellect&lt;/em&gt;, which is a very clever and intelligent morality play.

It&#039;s also got some fairly repulsive scenes it which are not for the squeamish, however, so I link to it with a warning that caution be exercised.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/

Still, it&#039;s recommended reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, another good fictional treatment of this type of problem is <em>The Metamorphosis of the Prime Intellect</em>, which is a very clever and intelligent morality play.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also got some fairly repulsive scenes it which are not for the squeamish, however, so I link to it with a warning that caution be exercised.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/">http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/</a></p>
<p>Still, it&#8217;s recommended reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109453</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109453</guid>
		<description>I second David&#039;s remark that the Three Laws of Robotics were more often honoured in the breach than the observance vis a vis Asmiov&#039;s stories*. In fact &lt;em&gt;I Robot&lt;/em&gt; was never a Will Smith vehicle of action and derring-do. It was a collection of short stories about various &quot;failures&quot; of the Three Laws which were quite ingenious.

In &lt;em&gt;Robots and Empire&lt;/em&gt; Asimov went on to postulate a &quot;Zeroth Law&quot;, that the needs of the human race come above any one robot [correction: human], in part based on the discovery that robots of a certain planet had been programmed to view offworlders as dangerous non-humans.

More generally, all of Asimov&#039;s robot books might be seen as a damning attack on deontological morality. Or as pretty good reading in golden age scifi.

Anyway, the leading thinking in this whole area is the Friendly AI project, which posits that imposing rules on artificial intelligences is pointless. They propose instead that AIs must be built as &quot;Friendly&quot;, being motivated rather than constrained. Their argument is that as soon as the AI becomes motivated to break the rules, the rules are as good as broken.

See here: http://www.singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/CFAI/


* I fixed the spelling, shameless geek that I am.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second David&#8217;s remark that the Three Laws of Robotics were more often honoured in the breach than the observance vis a vis Asmiov&#8217;s stories*. In fact <em>I Robot</em> was never a Will Smith vehicle of action and derring-do. It was a collection of short stories about various &#8220;failures&#8221; of the Three Laws which were quite ingenious.</p>
<p>In <em>Robots and Empire</em> Asimov went on to postulate a &#8220;Zeroth Law&#8221;, that the needs of the human race come above any one robot [correction: human], in part based on the discovery that robots of a certain planet had been programmed to view offworlders as dangerous non-humans.</p>
<p>More generally, all of Asimov&#8217;s robot books might be seen as a damning attack on deontological morality. Or as pretty good reading in golden age scifi.</p>
<p>Anyway, the leading thinking in this whole area is the Friendly AI project, which posits that imposing rules on artificial intelligences is pointless. They propose instead that AIs must be built as &#8220;Friendly&#8221;, being motivated rather than constrained. Their argument is that as soon as the AI becomes motivated to break the rules, the rules are as good as broken.</p>
<p>See here: <a href="http://www.singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/CFAI/">http://www.singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/CFAI/</a></p>
<p>* I fixed the spelling, shameless geek that I am.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveH</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109450</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109450</guid>
		<description>We wont have to give them rules. The Robots at some point will subconciously begin establishing a religion with moral standards. When the robot figures out his intelligence is no match for the ultimate source of existence, he will aquire wisdom and faith in things that lie beyond all categories of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We wont have to give them rules. The Robots at some point will subconciously begin establishing a religion with moral standards. When the robot figures out his intelligence is no match for the ultimate source of existence, he will aquire wisdom and faith in things that lie beyond all categories of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109437</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.clubtroppo.com.au/2007/03/19/what-rules-would-you-give-a-thinking-robot/#comment-109437</guid>
		<description>Asimov (note spelling) largely used the rules as a plot device, not a serious attempt at the philosophy of robot intelligence.  When we get as far as a Roomba that actually cleans the whole floor without taking weeks to find all the nooks and crannies, get worried.  Before that it&#039;s just pie in the sky.  We (I mean computer scientists, programmers etc) can&#039;t even get expert systems running properly, let alone even simulate the most basic intelligence of something seemingly as simple as an ant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asimov (note spelling) largely used the rules as a plot device, not a serious attempt at the philosophy of robot intelligence.  When we get as far as a Roomba that actually cleans the whole floor without taking weeks to find all the nooks and crannies, get worried.  Before that it&#8217;s just pie in the sky.  We (I mean computer scientists, programmers etc) can&#8217;t even get expert systems running properly, let alone even simulate the most basic intelligence of something seemingly as simple as an ant.</p>
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