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	<title>Comments on: The end of &#8216;he said &#8211; she said&#8217; journalism?</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; He said - She said - Part Two</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-119306</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; He said - She said - Part Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 05:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-119306</guid>
		<description>[...] ran a piece of mine today heavily reworked from my earlier Troppo post on &#8216;he said - she said&#8217; journalism. In it I tried to further articulate - with the help [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ran a piece of mine today heavily reworked from my earlier Troppo post on &#8216;he said &#8211; she said&#8217; journalism. In it I tried to further articulate &#8211; with the help [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tibbles</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118600</link>
		<dc:creator>Tibbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 07:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118600</guid>
		<description>What a concept...so, who&#039;s keen on seeing journos apply it to all those Australian gun law studies?  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a concept&#8230;so, who&#8217;s keen on seeing journos apply it to all those Australian gun law studies?  ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118473</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 14:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118473</guid>
		<description>I agree with your point to some extent Stephen, but often a phone call will do it.  Have a look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/defensive-brumby-backs-modest-debt/2007/05/02/1177788225271.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this &lt;/a&gt;story by Josh Gordon in today&#039;s Age. He just had to pick up a phone and ring some respected economist.  The reader - who can&#039;t be expected to know anything surely deserves that.  Deserves to be told that, like households, it&#039;s normal and fine to borrow to invest if one does so modestly instead of being lost in &#039;he said she said&#039; no-man&#039;s land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your point to some extent Stephen, but often a phone call will do it.  Have a look at <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/defensive-brumby-backs-modest-debt/2007/05/02/1177788225271.html">this </a>story by Josh Gordon in today&#8217;s Age. He just had to pick up a phone and ring some respected economist.  The reader &#8211; who can&#8217;t be expected to know anything surely deserves that.  Deserves to be told that, like households, it&#8217;s normal and fine to borrow to invest if one does so modestly instead of being lost in &#8216;he said she said&#8217; no-man&#8217;s land.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Hill</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118469</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118469</guid>
		<description>I agree with PatrickG, having worked as a journo there are many situations where there is inadequate time to tease out the complexities. I know you are taught at uni to avoid &quot;churning out stories&quot; but with time constraints and editors asking for &quot;copy&quot; to fill the spaces with limited staff, stories all too often are produced on the run. 

While I&#039;ve never worked at any of the better staffed major media companies where there might be a little more latitude, my experience of being expected to produce a story within the hour (or close to) does tend to dimish the possibility of being able to produce articles that provide the sort of context that I as a reader would have demanded (with rigorous fact-checking all too easily overlooked). It is for this reason that I used to joke to myself at some of the more ridiculous times that I was the &quot;official press-release reiterator.&quot; The only way I&#039;ve found to avoid this was to find some sort of compromise between quality and quantity. You just have to pick winners, and you have to delegate some stories to being &quot;space-filling articles&quot; which when down briskly enable you to pursue the more important stories in at least something close to detail. Sadly some of these &quot;space-filling articles&quot; are unjustly pumped out to the dictates of the word factory, and with a little more time could have communicated a lot more to the reader. I&#039;ve all too often been in the situation where I have been assigned or uncovered what my editor would consider a minor 200-400 word piece where some source has provided a wealth of material in which I have only scratched the surface. Tragic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with PatrickG, having worked as a journo there are many situations where there is inadequate time to tease out the complexities. I know you are taught at uni to avoid &#8220;churning out stories&#8221; but with time constraints and editors asking for &#8220;copy&#8221; to fill the spaces with limited staff, stories all too often are produced on the run. </p>
<p>While I&#8217;ve never worked at any of the better staffed major media companies where there might be a little more latitude, my experience of being expected to produce a story within the hour (or close to) does tend to dimish the possibility of being able to produce articles that provide the sort of context that I as a reader would have demanded (with rigorous fact-checking all too easily overlooked). It is for this reason that I used to joke to myself at some of the more ridiculous times that I was the &#8220;official press-release reiterator.&#8221; The only way I&#8217;ve found to avoid this was to find some sort of compromise between quality and quantity. You just have to pick winners, and you have to delegate some stories to being &#8220;space-filling articles&#8221; which when down briskly enable you to pursue the more important stories in at least something close to detail. Sadly some of these &#8220;space-filling articles&#8221; are unjustly pumped out to the dictates of the word factory, and with a little more time could have communicated a lot more to the reader. I&#8217;ve all too often been in the situation where I have been assigned or uncovered what my editor would consider a minor 200-400 word piece where some source has provided a wealth of material in which I have only scratched the surface. Tragic.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Around the econblogs</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118435</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Around the econblogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 10:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118435</guid>
		<description>[...] Nicholas Gruen thinks Australian journalists could learn a thing or two from the NYT&#8217;s Allan Schwartz. Steve Levitt does too. For what it&#8217;s worth, any Australian newpaper journalist who wants an independent referee&#8217;s view on an economics paper is welcome to touch base. Particularly on controversial issues, I do think that the Schwartz method has a lot going for it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Nicholas Gruen thinks Australian journalists could learn a thing or two from the NYT&#8217;s Allan Schwartz. Steve Levitt does too. For what it&#8217;s worth, any Australian newpaper journalist who wants an independent referee&#8217;s view on an economics paper is welcome to touch base. Particularly on controversial issues, I do think that the Schwartz method has a lot going for it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118396</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 06:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118396</guid>
		<description>Too right James - I use &#039;lazy&#039; with a particularly private meaning.  Polititians are lazy too - in my sense of the word.  But both pollies and journos work their arses off in terms of time at the office. In journos case this forces them to be lazy with their sources.  They&#039;re forced to take short cuts. Still I think it is possible and I stressed it in the post to report not in a &#039;he said she said way&#039; without it adding much to your burden.  You have people on various subjects that you can ring - journos ring round all the time - but too often they&#039;re rining round when their angle is how the spin is going rather than whether the policy is any good.  

So sorry - you are quite right - lazy should be qualified. And to go further, a lot of the shaping of the journalists&#039; space is done for them - they have only marginal control.  If the editor is happy with &#039;he said she said&#039; or worse still demands it, then it will that much harder to do anything I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too right James &#8211; I use &#8216;lazy&#8217; with a particularly private meaning.  Polititians are lazy too &#8211; in my sense of the word.  But both pollies and journos work their arses off in terms of time at the office. In journos case this forces them to be lazy with their sources.  They&#8217;re forced to take short cuts. Still I think it is possible and I stressed it in the post to report not in a &#8216;he said she said way&#8217; without it adding much to your burden.  You have people on various subjects that you can ring &#8211; journos ring round all the time &#8211; but too often they&#8217;re rining round when their angle is how the spin is going rather than whether the policy is any good.  </p>
<p>So sorry &#8211; you are quite right &#8211; lazy should be qualified. And to go further, a lot of the shaping of the journalists&#8217; space is done for them &#8211; they have only marginal control.  If the editor is happy with &#8216;he said she said&#8217; or worse still demands it, then it will that much harder to do anything I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Girl on The Avenue</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118392</link>
		<dc:creator>Girl on The Avenue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 06:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118392</guid>
		<description>Bravo. You have a point. On the other hand...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo. You have a point. On the other hand&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: patrickg</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118388</link>
		<dc:creator>patrickg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 06:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118388</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re dead right James, and most journos are lucky if it even gets to the stage where an editor needs to say something like that about a specific piece. In my experience, they&#039;ll say it once, and you&#039;ll do it ever after, or they&#039;ll say it when they give you the brief.

Nicholas, I hate journalists as much as the next guy, but in their defence, it&#039;s not always laziness. When you have an hour or two to get an eight hundred word piece in, with three quotes and a statshot, time - and quality - is not something you have, and most editors tend to care about the former, but not so much the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re dead right James, and most journos are lucky if it even gets to the stage where an editor needs to say something like that about a specific piece. In my experience, they&#8217;ll say it once, and you&#8217;ll do it ever after, or they&#8217;ll say it when they give you the brief.</p>
<p>Nicholas, I hate journalists as much as the next guy, but in their defence, it&#8217;s not always laziness. When you have an hour or two to get an eight hundred word piece in, with three quotes and a statshot, time &#8211; and quality &#8211; is not something you have, and most editors tend to care about the former, but not so much the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: Numbers Man</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118375</link>
		<dc:creator>Numbers Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 05:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118375</guid>
		<description>I work in the climate change field and have quite a bit of contact with the media on a fairly regular basis. I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a journalist (a long-standing contact) who mentioned in passing that journalists at that newspaper were instructed by management (the editor) to get quotes from contrarians on climate change issues. Influencing journalists to move away from he said-she said journalism is a good thing, but it probably isn&#039;t going to be enough if management (sometimes ideologically driven management) demands it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work in the climate change field and have quite a bit of contact with the media on a fairly regular basis. I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a journalist (a long-standing contact) who mentioned in passing that journalists at that newspaper were instructed by management (the editor) to get quotes from contrarians on climate change issues. Influencing journalists to move away from he said-she said journalism is a good thing, but it probably isn&#8217;t going to be enough if management (sometimes ideologically driven management) demands it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118350</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 03:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118350</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s some of this James I agree, but quite a lot of he said she said journalism is just laziness.  Going and getting a contrary view on global warming or whatever is often &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;not &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;driven by some corporate objective.  It&#039;s just standard operating procedure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s some of this James I agree, but quite a lot of he said she said journalism is just laziness.  Going and getting a contrary view on global warming or whatever is often <strong><em>not </em></strong>driven by some corporate objective.  It&#8217;s just standard operating procedure.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118347</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 03:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118347</guid>
		<description>This is all well and good, but there&#039;s an assumption being made that the journalist&#039;s approach to an issue is basically a matter of competence, resources and habits. As if all we need to do is work on these, and we&#039;ll have much more useful and critical journalists. But many journalists in the mainstream media are working for proprieters who don&#039;t necessarily want the truth to come out. Censoring is too crude, so they&#039;ll insist that their editors present &#039;both sides of the story&#039;, even when one side is transparent corporate spin, as in the baseball story. The editors in turn demand this of individual journalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all well and good, but there&#8217;s an assumption being made that the journalist&#8217;s approach to an issue is basically a matter of competence, resources and habits. As if all we need to do is work on these, and we&#8217;ll have much more useful and critical journalists. But many journalists in the mainstream media are working for proprieters who don&#8217;t necessarily want the truth to come out. Censoring is too crude, so they&#8217;ll insist that their editors present &#8216;both sides of the story&#8217;, even when one side is transparent corporate spin, as in the baseball story. The editors in turn demand this of individual journalists.</p>
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		<title>By: mangoman</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118335</link>
		<dc:creator>mangoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 02:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118335</guid>
		<description>I am not a journalist - just a reader, listener, watcher - but please Nicholas tell any student that you can that they do not entertain with the &#039;he said - she said&#039; rubbish.  In fact they infuriate.  It seems to me that their lack of capacity to do their job properly is contributing to the dumbing down of the population or at least creating a new class system with those in the know and those who aren&#039;t.

We increasingly look to the media for a constant feed of information and analysis. When the media fail to do the job competently myths develop, leaders are left unaccountable and ignorance/apathy become fashionable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not a journalist &#8211; just a reader, listener, watcher &#8211; but please Nicholas tell any student that you can that they do not entertain with the &#8216;he said &#8211; she said&#8217; rubbish.  In fact they infuriate.  It seems to me that their lack of capacity to do their job properly is contributing to the dumbing down of the population or at least creating a new class system with those in the know and those who aren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>We increasingly look to the media for a constant feed of information and analysis. When the media fail to do the job competently myths develop, leaders are left unaccountable and ignorance/apathy become fashionable.</p>
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		<title>By: patrickg</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118317</link>
		<dc:creator>patrickg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 00:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118317</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, don&#039;t compromise, I guess.

The entire structure of journalism encourages you to compromise your ethics, writing, and standards for dealing with people. 

It&#039;s easy to take baby steps at a time - writing good pieces for a shitty paper, writing shitty pieces for a good publication, writing shitty pieces because the topic is shitty, but it lets you write a good piece on a better topic next time, writing shitty pieces because you have to pay the rent - until one day, you look in the mirror and you see Piers Ackerman looking back.

At least that&#039;s how it felt when I was doing it, and I&#039;ve never felt as ethically compromised since. 

My advice would be don&#039;t do it full-time, if you expect every piece to be good quality work. It won&#039;t happen, and the inevitability can be horrible. 

And also: Don&#039;t think it&#039;s okay because everyone else in the field does it. They&#039;re hacks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, don&#8217;t compromise, I guess.</p>
<p>The entire structure of journalism encourages you to compromise your ethics, writing, and standards for dealing with people. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to take baby steps at a time &#8211; writing good pieces for a shitty paper, writing shitty pieces for a good publication, writing shitty pieces because the topic is shitty, but it lets you write a good piece on a better topic next time, writing shitty pieces because you have to pay the rent &#8211; until one day, you look in the mirror and you see Piers Ackerman looking back.</p>
<p>At least that&#8217;s how it felt when I was doing it, and I&#8217;ve never felt as ethically compromised since. </p>
<p>My advice would be don&#8217;t do it full-time, if you expect every piece to be good quality work. It won&#8217;t happen, and the inevitability can be horrible. </p>
<p>And also: Don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s okay because everyone else in the field does it. They&#8217;re hacks.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118313</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 00:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118313</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s probably too late for this cohort, but it&#039;d be nice to tell first-year journalism students that they should take at least &lt;EM&gt;one&lt;/EM&gt; statistics course during their time at university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably too late for this cohort, but it&#8217;d be nice to tell first-year journalism students that they should take at least <em>one</em> statistics course during their time at university.</p>
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		<title>By: paul frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118309</link>
		<dc:creator>paul frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 00:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118309</guid>
		<description>Nicholas,

The main advise I would offer is to impress upon them that if they wish to keep an independent mind, they&#039;re going to have to a lifelong habit of feeling comfortable with the notion that their private opinions may be wrong and thus to never cease updating their best guess of how things work. A good way to do that is to stay friendly and in touch with people you radically disagree with because they will invariably find data sources and arguments you wouldnt find yourself. Hence tell &#039;m to keep contacts with the likes of yourself and to never fall into the trap of completely believing any story, even if it is genuinely best-guess.
And if that sounds patronising, well, that seems to be what they ask for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas,</p>
<p>The main advise I would offer is to impress upon them that if they wish to keep an independent mind, they&#8217;re going to have to a lifelong habit of feeling comfortable with the notion that their private opinions may be wrong and thus to never cease updating their best guess of how things work. A good way to do that is to stay friendly and in touch with people you radically disagree with because they will invariably find data sources and arguments you wouldnt find yourself. Hence tell &#8216;m to keep contacts with the likes of yourself and to never fall into the trap of completely believing any story, even if it is genuinely best-guess.<br />
And if that sounds patronising, well, that seems to be what they ask for.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Leigh</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118299</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 20:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118299</guid>
		<description>When I first read the NYT story, I thought &#039;how clever - only a paper with the resources of the NYT could do that&#039;. Then I realised the obvious point: that all the workload was on the professors, not the journalists. And the academics didn&#039;t look like they minded at all. Like you, I expect, I&#039;d be happy to play independent arbiter at least a few times a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first read the NYT story, I thought &#8216;how clever &#8211; only a paper with the resources of the NYT could do that&#8217;. Then I realised the obvious point: that all the workload was on the professors, not the journalists. And the academics didn&#8217;t look like they minded at all. Like you, I expect, I&#8217;d be happy to play independent arbiter at least a few times a year.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118259</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 13:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/05/02/the-end-of-he-said-she-said-journalism/#comment-118259</guid>
		<description>&quot;white umpires tended to foul black players to a disproportionate degree and (to a lesser extent) visa versa.&quot;

Do they foul white players using the front of the credit card rather than the back? I know that American football is full of arcane details but this is ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;white umpires tended to foul black players to a disproportionate degree and (to a lesser extent) visa versa.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do they foul white players using the front of the credit card rather than the back? I know that American football is full of arcane details but this is ridiculous.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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