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	<title>Comments on: John Quiggin&#8217;s objection to self-reported happiness data</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: James Rice</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-129832</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-129832</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin wrote: "As regards onus of proof, I think it's on the person who wants to derive an inference. I don't know whether people who answer happiness questions are comparing themselves now to themselves in the past, or to other people they know or to everyone in the world. I suppose you might ask them, but I'm not aware that this has been done."

On my admittedly cursory reading of this debate, the most controversial issue is whether, among rich people, increasing income leads or does not lead to increases in happiness. Longitudinal happiness studies (but not cross-sectional ones) suggest that increasing income has little effect on happiness among the rich.

So, happiness studies support the conservative, cautious belief of no (or little) effect of income on happiness. It seems to me that those who question how happiness is measured in these studies do so in order to bolster their own inference that income actually does have a significant effect on happiness. It is those who question happiness studies that seek to support an inference, not their opponents. The onus of proof lies with the former.

(Note that, despite the problems associated with the measurement of happiness, happiness studies do continually find significant relationships between happiness and more sociological, less economic variables, like marital status.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Quiggin wrote: &#8220;As regards onus of proof, I think it&#8217;s on the person who wants to derive an inference. I don&#8217;t know whether people who answer happiness questions are comparing themselves now to themselves in the past, or to other people they know or to everyone in the world. I suppose you might ask them, but I&#8217;m not aware that this has been done.&#8221;</p>
<p>On my admittedly cursory reading of this debate, the most controversial issue is whether, among rich people, increasing income leads or does not lead to increases in happiness. Longitudinal happiness studies (but not cross-sectional ones) suggest that increasing income has little effect on happiness among the rich.</p>
<p>So, happiness studies support the conservative, cautious belief of no (or little) effect of income on happiness. It seems to me that those who question how happiness is measured in these studies do so in order to bolster their own inference that income actually does have a significant effect on happiness. It is those who question happiness studies that seek to support an inference, not their opponents. The onus of proof lies with the former.</p>
<p>(Note that, despite the problems associated with the measurement of happiness, happiness studies do continually find significant relationships between happiness and more sociological, less economic variables, like marital status.)</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128532</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128532</guid>
		<description>John

I don't know why you insist that people compare themselves with other people when quantifying the intensity of their psychic experiences. If I ask you how funny, embarrassing or scary some experience was, on a ten point scale, you don't say to yourself 'Let me think how funny a typical person would find that joke? I'll call that 5. Unfortunately I have a more sophisticated sense of humour, so for me unfortunately it was only a 3'.

It's in the nature of subjective experiences that they can't be verified or measured againts a standard yardstick. But it's also in the nature of being human (except for autistics) that we try to quantify each other's experiences, and to some degree succeed.

The idea is that we have our own internal scales, and as long as the end points are meaningfully defined, one person can identify points along the scale for the benefit of others. I mentioned pain data at the end of the post. These also involve a ten-point scale, and typically the subject is told that zero means no pain and ten means the worst pain you can imagine. In the HILDA survey, the overall satisfaction question is: 'All things considered, how satisfied are you with your life? Again, pick a number between 0 and 10 to indicate how satisfied you are.' Respondents are shown a card indicating that 0 means totally dissatisfied and 10 means totally satisfied.

Of course we can never know exactly how another person's scale corresponds to ours -- in the case of pain, some people may be able to imagine a worse upper limit of pain than others, and we can never be sure whether a given individual has in mind a linear or an exponential scale. But if you accept that people every day succeed in communicating the grades of their pain, sadness, embarrassment or whatever, then it's not a huge leap to assign some numbers to the gradations. If someone rates their life satisfaction at 7, it's pretty clear that this means: significantly closer to very happy than very unhappy, but still with a lot of room for improvement. That's a lot more information than Belgium. 

Of course the data should be treated with care, and I'm sure it's the case that answers are sensitive to all kinds of factors, like the context of the survey, the wording of the question, and the other questions in the survey. But this just means there is an art to conducting good surveys, and practicioners have a duty to implement best practice.


Just Me

The symptoms of many diseases, including cancers and muscular-skeletal disorders, can treated in ways that make the patient more comfortable without affecting mortality or morbidity, so I don't see why this throws the subjective measurement into doubt. I'd be interested to know where pain fits into the equation. The studies you refer to would only be puzzling if the subjects report that their wellbeing has improved while also reporting unchanged pain levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know why you insist that people compare themselves with other people when quantifying the intensity of their psychic experiences. If I ask you how funny, embarrassing or scary some experience was, on a ten point scale, you don&#8217;t say to yourself &#8216;Let me think how funny a typical person would find that joke? I&#8217;ll call that 5. Unfortunately I have a more sophisticated sense of humour, so for me unfortunately it was only a 3&#8242;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s in the nature of subjective experiences that they can&#8217;t be verified or measured againts a standard yardstick. But it&#8217;s also in the nature of being human (except for autistics) that we try to quantify each other&#8217;s experiences, and to some degree succeed.</p>
<p>The idea is that we have our own internal scales, and as long as the end points are meaningfully defined, one person can identify points along the scale for the benefit of others. I mentioned pain data at the end of the post. These also involve a ten-point scale, and typically the subject is told that zero means no pain and ten means the worst pain you can imagine. In the HILDA survey, the overall satisfaction question is: &#8216;All things considered, how satisfied are you with your life? Again, pick a number between 0 and 10 to indicate how satisfied you are.&#8217; Respondents are shown a card indicating that 0 means totally dissatisfied and 10 means totally satisfied.</p>
<p>Of course we can never know exactly how another person&#8217;s scale corresponds to ours &#8212; in the case of pain, some people may be able to imagine a worse upper limit of pain than others, and we can never be sure whether a given individual has in mind a linear or an exponential scale. But if you accept that people every day succeed in communicating the grades of their pain, sadness, embarrassment or whatever, then it&#8217;s not a huge leap to assign some numbers to the gradations. If someone rates their life satisfaction at 7, it&#8217;s pretty clear that this means: significantly closer to very happy than very unhappy, but still with a lot of room for improvement. That&#8217;s a lot more information than Belgium. </p>
<p>Of course the data should be treated with care, and I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s the case that answers are sensitive to all kinds of factors, like the context of the survey, the wording of the question, and the other questions in the survey. But this just means there is an art to conducting good surveys, and practicioners have a duty to implement best practice.</p>
<p>Just Me</p>
<p>The symptoms of many diseases, including cancers and muscular-skeletal disorders, can treated in ways that make the patient more comfortable without affecting mortality or morbidity, so I don&#8217;t see why this throws the subjective measurement into doubt. I&#8217;d be interested to know where pain fits into the equation. The studies you refer to would only be puzzling if the subjects report that their wellbeing has improved while also reporting unchanged pain levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128460</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128460</guid>
		<description>these arguments have all been mulled over dozens of times already, including on this site. Its a rearguard debate not worth going into again.
The more interesting question is why the sceptics allow themselves to disregard the same problems in the measurement of other socio-economic factors. We for instance measure capital on the national level now, but in the 50s had debates raging about whether you could really just add buildings, coffee machines, bridges, and computers into one single number as if each component is pefectly interchangeable and as if the unvalued forms of capital (institutions etc.) dont count. Similar objections can be raised with respect to the concept of 'labour utilisation' where it is presumed that the people who dont work are just as productive as those that do (ludicrous). Even income is a concept one can only measure by pretending that all the access to services we get that are not captured in money wouldnt be worth something on the open market (such as household production). The list is endless and the only reason we dont talk about it any more is that the profession has moved on and simply accepted that we've got to work with the best we can measure rather than moan and complain like old women.
One reason theorists like John in particular are so sceptical is that they're used to simply presuming they themselves know what the utility function looks like. By measuring the thing one takes their toy away. Sorry John, but the days when you could shoose one utility function for this paper and another one for another without having to defend it on empirical grounds are hopefully coming to an end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>these arguments have all been mulled over dozens of times already, including on this site. Its a rearguard debate not worth going into again.<br />
The more interesting question is why the sceptics allow themselves to disregard the same problems in the measurement of other socio-economic factors. We for instance measure capital on the national level now, but in the 50s had debates raging about whether you could really just add buildings, coffee machines, bridges, and computers into one single number as if each component is pefectly interchangeable and as if the unvalued forms of capital (institutions etc.) dont count. Similar objections can be raised with respect to the concept of &#8216;labour utilisation&#8217; where it is presumed that the people who dont work are just as productive as those that do (ludicrous). Even income is a concept one can only measure by pretending that all the access to services we get that are not captured in money wouldnt be worth something on the open market (such as household production). The list is endless and the only reason we dont talk about it any more is that the profession has moved on and simply accepted that we&#8217;ve got to work with the best we can measure rather than moan and complain like old women.<br />
One reason theorists like John in particular are so sceptical is that they&#8217;re used to simply presuming they themselves know what the utility function looks like. By measuring the thing one takes their toy away. Sorry John, but the days when you could shoose one utility function for this paper and another one for another without having to defend it on empirical grounds are hopefully coming to an end.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128348</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128348</guid>
		<description>Geoff

Yes, there's always boot scootin'.  And lawn bowls.  Closely followed by Phil Nitschke's peaceful pill ... exit stage left happily singing Sinatra's "My Way" very badly ... regrets I've had a few ... but then again too few to mention ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff</p>
<p>Yes, there&#8217;s always boot scootin&#8217;.  And lawn bowls.  Closely followed by Phil Nitschke&#8217;s peaceful pill &#8230; exit stage left happily singing Sinatra&#8217;s &#8220;My Way&#8221; very badly &#8230; regrets I&#8217;ve had a few &#8230; but then again too few to mention &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Just Me</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128323</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128323</guid>
		<description>I have to make sense of peer-reviewed literature in medicine that includes (explicitly and implicitly) the question of 'happiness', in one form or another. 

Utter nightmare. So subjective and methodologically difficult that it is largely impossible to determine objectively to any useful degree. 

It is quite possible to change the self-perception and verbal behaviour of a large percentage of people so they report being 'happy', or at least at lot less unhappy, but without any concomitant statistically significant change in objective measures such as disease morbidity or mortality, medical resource consumption, work and income status, personal relationship status, etc. I have seen mainstream medical therapeutic studies that claim entirely on the basis of patient self-report to have cured serious physical symptoms, yet primary objective measures (such as blood parameters, activity levels, workforce participation rates, etc) either didn't improve, or got worse. All it proves is that people's self-perception and verbal behaviour is often highly manipulable and has no necessary immediate relationship to the reality they live (at least in the short term, in the long term reality catches up with all of us).

Some things are just never going to be amenable to solid objective assessment, and I suspect 'happiness' is one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to make sense of peer-reviewed literature in medicine that includes (explicitly and implicitly) the question of &#8216;happiness&#8217;, in one form or another. </p>
<p>Utter nightmare. So subjective and methodologically difficult that it is largely impossible to determine objectively to any useful degree. </p>
<p>It is quite possible to change the self-perception and verbal behaviour of a large percentage of people so they report being &#8216;happy&#8217;, or at least at lot less unhappy, but without any concomitant statistically significant change in objective measures such as disease morbidity or mortality, medical resource consumption, work and income status, personal relationship status, etc. I have seen mainstream medical therapeutic studies that claim entirely on the basis of patient self-report to have cured serious physical symptoms, yet primary objective measures (such as blood parameters, activity levels, workforce participation rates, etc) either didn&#8217;t improve, or got worse. All it proves is that people&#8217;s self-perception and verbal behaviour is often highly manipulable and has no necessary immediate relationship to the reality they live (at least in the short term, in the long term reality catches up with all of us).</p>
<p>Some things are just never going to be amenable to solid objective assessment, and I suspect &#8216;happiness&#8217; is one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Honnor</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128305</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Honnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128305</guid>
		<description>"I will never play rugby for Australia or be a concert pianist or run a sub-two hour marathon"

There's always line dancing, Ken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I will never play rugby for Australia or be a concert pianist or run a sub-two hour marathon&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s always line dancing, Ken.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128280</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128280</guid>
		<description>As regards onus of proof, I think it's on the person who wants to derive an inference. I don't know whether people who answer happiness questions are comparing themselves now to themselves in the past, or to other people they know or to everyone in the world. I suppose you might ask them, but I'm not aware that this has been done.

The only thing that is clear to me is that the answer is inherently relative to some set of people. Otherwise, as an answer to "how happy are you?", "7" makes no more sense than "Belgium".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As regards onus of proof, I think it&#8217;s on the person who wants to derive an inference. I don&#8217;t know whether people who answer happiness questions are comparing themselves now to themselves in the past, or to other people they know or to everyone in the world. I suppose you might ask them, but I&#8217;m not aware that this has been done.</p>
<p>The only thing that is clear to me is that the answer is inherently relative to some set of people. Otherwise, as an answer to &#8220;how happy are you?&#8221;, &#8220;7&#8243; makes no more sense than &#8220;Belgium&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128261</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128261</guid>
		<description>I knew you'd say that. But isn't the onus on you to show why we would have any a priori expectation that the second response is intended? As I said, when it comes to a child's height, we know that tall means 'tall for his age'. There is no such convention when it come to happiness. Of course, if you are asked by a friend, who knows the background, 'how are you going' and they reply 'fine', we might take this as a shorthand for 'fine, all things considered'. But there is no reason why a researcher, in the context of a survey, would or should interpret the response as having an unstated qualification attached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew you&#8217;d say that. But isn&#8217;t the onus on you to show why we would have any a priori expectation that the second response is intended? As I said, when it comes to a child&#8217;s height, we know that tall means &#8216;tall for his age&#8217;. There is no such convention when it come to happiness. Of course, if you are asked by a friend, who knows the background, &#8216;how are you going&#8217; and they reply &#8216;fine&#8217;, we might take this as a shorthand for &#8216;fine, all things considered&#8217;. But there is no reason why a researcher, in the context of a survey, would or should interpret the response as having an unstated qualification attached.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128243</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128243</guid>
		<description>"But to say ‘I’m happy because my income is high compared to others in my soci-economic category’ is not the same thing as saying ‘I’m happy compared to other people in my socioeconomic category.’"

Exactly. But how can you tell which of these two responses you're getting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But to say ‘I’m happy because my income is high compared to others in my soci-economic category’ is not the same thing as saying ‘I’m happy compared to other people in my socioeconomic category.’&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly. But how can you tell which of these two responses you&#8217;re getting?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128229</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128229</guid>
		<description>Yes, it's predominantly the assumption that it is possible in any meaningful sense to make a personal comparison of one's own subjective happiness across time that I find inherently implausible.  I simply have no idea whether I'm happier now than (say) 30 years ago, and I don't believe most others are able to make a meaningful evaluation either.  I'm sure I'm mostly less prone to the wild, hormonally-driven fluctuations from elation to despair that often characterise teenagers and young adults, although even that wasn't true only 3 or 4 years ago when my marriage was breaking up.

I'm no longer full of the optimism and sense of boundless possibility of youth, but then I'm also no longer driven to compete or prove my masculinity  or even in many respects to worry very much what most people think of me.  I have a more realistic sense of my own abilities, limitations, needs and desires, but conversely my abilities are less than they once were, at least physically.  I will never play rugby for Australia or be a concert pianist or run a sub-two hour marathon.

But can I tote up all these pluses and minuses and evaluate my overall happiness level comparative to 30 years ago?  Of course I can't, and I reckon anyone who claims otherwise is either lying or deluding themselves.  Moreover, as the above discussion implicitly suggests, most of the factors that impact personal happiness arise from stages of one's life cycle and have little to do with material wealth per se.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s predominantly the assumption that it is possible in any meaningful sense to make a personal comparison of one&#8217;s own subjective happiness across time that I find inherently implausible.  I simply have no idea whether I&#8217;m happier now than (say) 30 years ago, and I don&#8217;t believe most others are able to make a meaningful evaluation either.  I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m mostly less prone to the wild, hormonally-driven fluctuations from elation to despair that often characterise teenagers and young adults, although even that wasn&#8217;t true only 3 or 4 years ago when my marriage was breaking up.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no longer full of the optimism and sense of boundless possibility of youth, but then I&#8217;m also no longer driven to compete or prove my masculinity  or even in many respects to worry very much what most people think of me.  I have a more realistic sense of my own abilities, limitations, needs and desires, but conversely my abilities are less than they once were, at least physically.  I will never play rugby for Australia or be a concert pianist or run a sub-two hour marathon.</p>
<p>But can I tote up all these pluses and minuses and evaluate my overall happiness level comparative to 30 years ago?  Of course I can&#8217;t, and I reckon anyone who claims otherwise is either lying or deluding themselves.  Moreover, as the above discussion implicitly suggests, most of the factors that impact personal happiness arise from stages of one&#8217;s life cycle and have little to do with material wealth per se.</p>
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		<title>By: Bannerman</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128221</link>
		<dc:creator>Bannerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/06/13/john-quiggins-objection-to-self-reported-happiness-data/#comment-128221</guid>
		<description>Refer my post of &lt;a href="http://www.waddayano.org/2007/06/do_you_have_it.php#more" rel="nofollow"&gt;8 June&lt;/a&gt;, wherein I addressed this question of 'happiness'. It's etheral, it's individual and it cannot be adequately or accurately measured without a benchmark measure being defined. Said benchmark can't be set because as individuals, we're all entriely different.

Oh, and that post wasn't a rant. It was a thought exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Refer my post of <a href="http://www.waddayano.org/2007/06/do_you_have_it.php#more" >8 June</a>, wherein I addressed this question of &#8216;happiness&#8217;. It&#8217;s etheral, it&#8217;s individual and it cannot be adequately or accurately measured without a benchmark measure being defined. Said benchmark can&#8217;t be set because as individuals, we&#8217;re all entriely different.</p>
<p>Oh, and that post wasn&#8217;t a rant. It was a thought exercise.</p>
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