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	<title>Comments on: Contrapunctal me!</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/</link>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166672</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166672</guid>
		<description>Absolutely it does.  I&#039;m sure that this is a more important story than people realise.  Perhaps much more important. 

If you think about the labour market and the fact that around 50% of jobs are filled &lt;strike&gt;internally&lt;/strike&gt;informally that speaks volumes for how important informal networks are. How much people feel the need for mutual commitment. 

I&#039;ve been trying to raise these issues for a fair while.  I raised them at a conference which was in fact organised by Brian Howe.  But when I mentioned them it was considered impolite.  I was blaming the victim.  

Even people who were intrigued by the argument couldn&#039;t help but say things like &quot;Well employers are now more loyal, so what do they expect?  Perhaps the &#039;lemons&#039; showing no commitment to their work, no &#039;bonding instinct&#039; as it were was just deserts for the employers&quot;.  

Of course it&#039;s true that employers aren&#039;t the only ones looking for lemons in the workplace.  The new worker is also (if s/he&#039;s got a bit of nous) will be wondering whether their boss is a lemon.  Some bastard who&#039;ll work you to death and show no loyalty to reciprocate your own&quot;. 

But I think the response to this is twofold. 

1. Except in a downturn employers have no &lt;em&gt;interest&lt;/em&gt; in sacking a worker or getting them offside - though of course they can be bloody inconsiderate about working hours etc.  But that is something one can find out fairly quickly and then bugger off if the boss is bad news. 
2. The &#039;justice&#039; of the situation in a private sense is, in my view, secondary to the interests of the employee.  In my opinion the employees interests are emphatically in a bit of persistence. One month or at most six should be a good period in which to get an impression of whether the boss is a lemon.  If they&#039;re not it&#039;s important to persevere.  Because a boss (and certainly me as a boss) is looking for signs of perseverance on which a mutually beneficial relationship can be built.  And there are lots of people there (at least regarding the jobs I hire people for) who end up not persevering. That&#039;s hugely against their own interest.  It has the by-product that it&#039;s against the interest of all the other people in the labour market. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.peachhomeloans.com.au&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peach&lt;/a&gt; used to be staffed by receptionists all over the country - all with the flexibility to go pick up their kids or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.peachhomeloans.com.au/how-peach-works.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;whatever they wanted to do so long as they let us know&lt;/a&gt;.  But it became impossible and now we use a call centre.  We outsource the hassles of sorting through the lemons.  So far an Australian call centre has given us good service.  It&#039;s in a regional centre and has pretty good retention of staff and they try hard to keep us happy - and generally do a good job.  But it probably wouldn&#039;t be very hard to throw the switch offshore.

Regarding the issue you raise specifically, I think employers will often undervalue migrants unless they&#039;re obviously skilled and imported for the purpose of taking up the job.  And a lot of migrants are ambitious if not for themselves, their kids, so it makes sense for them to do something self employed. That&#039;s how Australia became the home to some of the best hybrid foods in the world.  Souvlakis are a lot yummier in Melbourne than they are in Athens! 

Falafel anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely it does.  I&#8217;m sure that this is a more important story than people realise.  Perhaps much more important. </p>
<p>If you think about the labour market and the fact that around 50% of jobs are filled <strike>internally</strike>informally that speaks volumes for how important informal networks are. How much people feel the need for mutual commitment. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been trying to raise these issues for a fair while.  I raised them at a conference which was in fact organised by Brian Howe.  But when I mentioned them it was considered impolite.  I was blaming the victim.  </p>
<p>Even people who were intrigued by the argument couldn&#8217;t help but say things like &#8220;Well employers are now more loyal, so what do they expect?  Perhaps the &#8216;lemons&#8217; showing no commitment to their work, no &#8216;bonding instinct&#8217; as it were was just deserts for the employers&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Of course it&#8217;s true that employers aren&#8217;t the only ones looking for lemons in the workplace.  The new worker is also (if s/he&#8217;s got a bit of nous) will be wondering whether their boss is a lemon.  Some bastard who&#8217;ll work you to death and show no loyalty to reciprocate your own&#8221;. </p>
<p>But I think the response to this is twofold. </p>
<p>1. Except in a downturn employers have no <em>interest</em> in sacking a worker or getting them offside &#8211; though of course they can be bloody inconsiderate about working hours etc.  But that is something one can find out fairly quickly and then bugger off if the boss is bad news.<br />
2. The &#8216;justice&#8217; of the situation in a private sense is, in my view, secondary to the interests of the employee.  In my opinion the employees interests are emphatically in a bit of persistence. One month or at most six should be a good period in which to get an impression of whether the boss is a lemon.  If they&#8217;re not it&#8217;s important to persevere.  Because a boss (and certainly me as a boss) is looking for signs of perseverance on which a mutually beneficial relationship can be built.  And there are lots of people there (at least regarding the jobs I hire people for) who end up not persevering. That&#8217;s hugely against their own interest.  It has the by-product that it&#8217;s against the interest of all the other people in the labour market. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.peachhomeloans.com.au" rel="nofollow">Peach</a> used to be staffed by receptionists all over the country &#8211; all with the flexibility to go pick up their kids or <a href="http://www.peachhomeloans.com.au/how-peach-works.htm" rel="nofollow">whatever they wanted to do so long as they let us know</a>.  But it became impossible and now we use a call centre.  We outsource the hassles of sorting through the lemons.  So far an Australian call centre has given us good service.  It&#8217;s in a regional centre and has pretty good retention of staff and they try hard to keep us happy &#8211; and generally do a good job.  But it probably wouldn&#8217;t be very hard to throw the switch offshore.</p>
<p>Regarding the issue you raise specifically, I think employers will often undervalue migrants unless they&#8217;re obviously skilled and imported for the purpose of taking up the job.  And a lot of migrants are ambitious if not for themselves, their kids, so it makes sense for them to do something self employed. That&#8217;s how Australia became the home to some of the best hybrid foods in the world.  Souvlakis are a lot yummier in Melbourne than they are in Athens! </p>
<p>Falafel anyone?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166638</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166638</guid>
		<description>Nicholas - I&#039;m fascinated by the &#039;market for lemons&#039; argument. Could information asymmetry explain why some immigrant groups are more likely to choose self-employment?

Akerlof says that if employers don&#039;t recognise or trust a person&#039;s credentials they are unlikely to hire them in a responsible, well-paid position. So if a high-ability immigrant is unable to get a normal return for their labour as an employee, does it make self-employment relatively more attractive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas &#8211; I&#8217;m fascinated by the &#8216;market for lemons&#8217; argument. Could information asymmetry explain why some immigrant groups are more likely to choose self-employment?</p>
<p>Akerlof says that if employers don&#8217;t recognise or trust a person&#8217;s credentials they are unlikely to hire them in a responsible, well-paid position. So if a high-ability immigrant is unable to get a normal return for their labour as an employee, does it make self-employment relatively more attractive?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: invig</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166538</link>
		<dc:creator>invig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166538</guid>
		<description>I heard that interview! Very impressive I thought, gives the blogosphere a good name!

BTW my blog is back from the ashes, though in a new format. Comments encouraged!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard that interview! Very impressive I thought, gives the blogosphere a good name!</p>
<p>BTW my blog is back from the ashes, though in a new format. Comments encouraged!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Link</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166505</link>
		<dc:creator>Link</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166505</guid>
		<description>Thanks very much Nicholas, on both counts--doing the post and putting up these graphs.  I find economics fascinating from a big picture view whilst a bit mind-numbingly difficult to comprehend in its more esoteric manifestations.

My ears pricked up when Michael Duffy introduced the Where has all the money gone? because I&#039;ve had my suspicions and kinda wondered about that too.  Doubly attentive when I heard your name mentioned.  You were interesting to listen to,  very cogent. Hope to hear some more from you on good old RN--compulsory listening at the caff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks very much Nicholas, on both counts&#8211;doing the post and putting up these graphs.  I find economics fascinating from a big picture view whilst a bit mind-numbingly difficult to comprehend in its more esoteric manifestations.</p>
<p>My ears pricked up when Michael Duffy introduced the Where has all the money gone? because I&#8217;ve had my suspicions and kinda wondered about that too.  Doubly attentive when I heard your name mentioned.  You were interesting to listen to,  very cogent. Hope to hear some more from you on good old RN&#8211;compulsory listening at the caff.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166350</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166350</guid>
		<description>Link, you&#039;ve covered a lot of ground there.  None of what I&#039;ve said is about wealth - it&#039;s about income.  The best figures for Australia I know of are by &lt;a href=&quot;http://econrsss.anu.edu.au/~aleigh/pdf/TopIncomesAustralia.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tony Atkinson and blogger and sometimes commenter here Andrew Leigh (pdf)&lt;/a&gt;.

Here&#039;s a table from the American numbers - comparing the early 70s with the early 2000s. (and sorry about all the code that is getting through onto the display)

&lt;table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
 style=&#039;margin-left:9.15pt;border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:
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 .5pt solid windowtext;mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext&#039;&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;height:20.85pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:20.85pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;90th percentile&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:
  solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:20.85pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;34% real growth (with less lower down - where
  90% of the population shared half the growth in the US economy. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:1;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;1st percentile&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;Nearly 90%&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:2;height:13.5pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;0.1&lt;span style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;(one
  in a thousand incomes over 1.6 mil US)&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
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  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;Nearly trebled. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:3;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes;height:18.0pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;0.01 (one in ten thousand  incomes around $ 6
  mill)&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;Increased &lt;span class=SpellE&gt;sixfold&lt;/span&gt;. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;

Here&#039;s Atkinson and Leigh&#039;s stuff - or rather an extract from it comparing the time at which the top got least (early 1980s) and the early 2000s.  Mind you the sustained, suppressed level of profits by the early 1980s suggests (to me anyway) that those low levels are likely to have been difficult to sustain. 
&lt;table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
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 .5pt solid windowtext;mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext&#039;&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;1&lt;sup&gt;st&lt;/sup&gt;  percentile&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;&gt;$150,000&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:
  solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;Gone from 5% to around 9% of total income. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
 &lt;tr style=&#039;mso-yfti-irow:1;height:13.5pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;0.5&lt;span style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;(one
  in 200)&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;&gt;$200,000&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;From around 3% of total income to 6% of total
  income&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
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  &lt;td width=150 valign=top style=&#039;width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;0.1 (one in 1,000)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span
  style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%&#039;&gt; 0.1% -
  $469,588&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&#160;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
  &lt;td width=377 valign=top style=&#039;width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt&#039;&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;From around 1% of income to probably 3% of
  income  though the numbers to 2001 say around 2.5%.&lt;span
  style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Im extrapolating from my own knowledge
  of CEO salaries.&lt;span style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The CEO of Macquarie
  got paid two per cent of last years income!&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;p class=MsoNormal style=&#039;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt&#039;&gt;&lt;span
  lang=EN-US style=&#039;font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US&#039;&gt;In the US over the same period its gone from
  around 2.3% to 7.6%.&lt;span style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Spectacular
  benefits.&lt;span style=&#039;mso-spacerun:yes&#039;&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And even &lt;span class=SpellE&gt;moreso&lt;/span&gt;
  for the top 0.01% at the top end. &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
  &lt;/td&gt;
 &lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Link, you&#8217;ve covered a lot of ground there.  None of what I&#8217;ve said is about wealth &#8211; it&#8217;s about income.  The best figures for Australia I know of are by <a href="http://econrsss.anu.edu.au/~aleigh/pdf/TopIncomesAustralia.pdf" rel="nofollow">Tony Atkinson and blogger and sometimes commenter here Andrew Leigh (pdf)</a>.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a table from the American numbers &#8211; comparing the early 70s with the early 2000s. (and sorry about all the code that is getting through onto the display)</p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0<br />
 style='margin-left:9.15pt;border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:<br />
 solid windowtext .5pt;mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;mso-border-insideh:<br />
 .5pt solid windowtext;mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext'><br />
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;height:20.85pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:20.85pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>90th percentile<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:<br />
  solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:20.85pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>34% real growth (with less lower down &#8211; where<br />
  90% of the population shared half the growth in the US economy. <o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:1;height:21.75pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>1st percentile<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:<br />
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Nearly 90%<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:2;height:13.5pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>0.1<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>(one<br />
  in a thousand incomes over 1.6 mil US)<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:<br />
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Nearly trebled. <o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:3;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes;height:18.0pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>0.01 (one in ten thousand  incomes around $ 6<br />
  mill)<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:<br />
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Increased <span class=SpellE>sixfold</span>. <o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>Here&#8217;s Atkinson and Leigh&#8217;s stuff &#8211; or rather an extract from it comparing the time at which the top got least (early 1980s) and the early 2000s.  Mind you the sustained, suppressed level of profits by the early 1980s suggests (to me anyway) that those low levels are likely to have been difficult to sustain. </p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0<br />
 style='margin-left:9.15pt;border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:<br />
 solid windowtext .5pt;mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;mso-border-insideh:<br />
 .5pt solid windowtext;mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext'><br />
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;height:21.75pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>1<sup>st</sup>  percentile<o :p></o></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;$150,000<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:<br />
  solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:21.75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Gone from 5% to around 9% of total income. <o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:1;height:13.5pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>0.5<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>(one<br />
  in 200)<o :p></o></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;$200,000<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:<br />
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:13.5pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From around 3% of total income to 6% of total<br />
  income<o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:2;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes;height:18.0pt'>
<td width=150 valign=top style='width:112.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>0.1 (one in 1,000)</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%'> 0.1% -<br />
  $469,588<o :p></o></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o :p>&nbsp;</o></span></p>
</td>
<td width=377 valign=top style='width:282.75pt;border-top:none;border-left:<br />
  none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;<br />
  mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;<br />
  mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;height:18.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From around 1% of income to probably 3% of<br />
  income  though the numbers to 2001 say around 2.5%.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>Im extrapolating from my own knowledge<br />
  of CEO salaries.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>The CEO of Macquarie<br />
  got paid two per cent of last years income!<o :p></o></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;line-height:<br />
  115%;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>In the US over the same period its gone from<br />
  around 2.3% to 7.6%.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>Spectacular<br />
  benefits.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>And even <span class=SpellE>moreso</span><br />
  for the top 0.01% at the top end. <o :p></o></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Link</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166280</link>
		<dc:creator>Link</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2007/08/18/contrapunctal-me/#comment-166280</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting this Nicholas. You&#039;ll be a regular on the ABC in no time! I guess I could have read the transcript, but I&#039;m glad you&#039;ve posted it here where I can comment.  

I would liked to have known what the actual figures were for Australia, you suggest they&#039;re pretty similar to the US, but with tax breaks and money being given to families with children you&#039;re suggesting that its not as stark as it is in the US.  Pretty stark nonetheless I would&#039;ve thought.  On a personal level, being childless, single, female  and living in a rural area I find it galling to be told that my real income and my job prospects have never been so good--which I have found to be complete hogwash.

I&#039;d be interested to know but doubt that anyone does-- if all debts were called in who would be found to own all the money?  I think this would give a far truer indication of the real situation.  Probably nigh impossible when taking assets into account. What&#039;s an asset?  A house with a variable worth, stocks and shares that are subject to nosedive?  Superannuation, also subject to movement on the stock exchange.  But if you&#039;re $250,000 in debt then you&#039;re $250,000 in the red as far as I can see. 

And re lemons. Is it any wonder? Once GM was the biggest employer in the US and they paid above award wages and provided excellent conditions. Walmart have now taken their place, and they pay on average, less than enough to keep people above the poverty line and provide only the most basic legal conditions that they can get away with.  As far as I can see ALL employers these days are more likely to model themselves on a Walmart type ideology where they provide only the barest legal minimums and often when scruitinied what they are providing, or not,as the case may be, is illegal.  

Sans slavery or a discernible &#039;working class&#039; in countries where we are all aiming for a similar &#039;lifestyle&#039;, the system is struggling and will continue to struggle to stand up unless governments like ours simply dish money out to those whose votes they would like to secure.  This hardly seems like a rational solution, especially when their statistics about what is actually going on &#039;out there&#039; are so often badly skewed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this Nicholas. You&#8217;ll be a regular on the ABC in no time! I guess I could have read the transcript, but I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve posted it here where I can comment.  </p>
<p>I would liked to have known what the actual figures were for Australia, you suggest they&#8217;re pretty similar to the US, but with tax breaks and money being given to families with children you&#8217;re suggesting that its not as stark as it is in the US.  Pretty stark nonetheless I would&#8217;ve thought.  On a personal level, being childless, single, female  and living in a rural area I find it galling to be told that my real income and my job prospects have never been so good&#8211;which I have found to be complete hogwash.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested to know but doubt that anyone does&#8211; if all debts were called in who would be found to own all the money?  I think this would give a far truer indication of the real situation.  Probably nigh impossible when taking assets into account. What&#8217;s an asset?  A house with a variable worth, stocks and shares that are subject to nosedive?  Superannuation, also subject to movement on the stock exchange.  But if you&#8217;re $250,000 in debt then you&#8217;re $250,000 in the red as far as I can see. </p>
<p>And re lemons. Is it any wonder? Once GM was the biggest employer in the US and they paid above award wages and provided excellent conditions. Walmart have now taken their place, and they pay on average, less than enough to keep people above the poverty line and provide only the most basic legal conditions that they can get away with.  As far as I can see ALL employers these days are more likely to model themselves on a Walmart type ideology where they provide only the barest legal minimums and often when scruitinied what they are providing, or not,as the case may be, is illegal.  </p>
<p>Sans slavery or a discernible &#8216;working class&#8217; in countries where we are all aiming for a similar &#8216;lifestyle&#8217;, the system is struggling and will continue to struggle to stand up unless governments like ours simply dish money out to those whose votes they would like to secure.  This hardly seems like a rational solution, especially when their statistics about what is actually going on &#8216;out there&#8217; are so often badly skewed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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