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	<title>Comments on: Another Impossibility for Arrow</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-225832</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-225832</guid>
		<description>Really? I&#039;m less familiar with the UK system. What makes it worse?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really? I&#8217;m less familiar with the UK system. What makes it worse?</p>
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		<title>By: Vee</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-225670</link>
		<dc:creator>Vee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-225670</guid>
		<description>The nicest thing I can say about the US voting system is its an improvement over the UK&#039;s FPTP voting system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nicest thing I can say about the US voting system is its an improvement over the UK&#8217;s FPTP voting system.</p>
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		<title>By: The Doctor</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-223242</link>
		<dc:creator>The Doctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-223242</guid>
		<description>Jacques,
 There are a couple of things wrong with US electoral processes(they don&#039;t deserve being called a system!).
 1. The partisan nature of the electoral processes right down to precinct level - there are a few places that have non-partisan electoral processes like Iowa, and
 2. FPTP particularly when used in conjunction with insecure computer voting - in the US computer voting systems are little more than overpriced abacuses because they do not keep a record of each individual vote as is required anywhere preferential voting is used. Have a look at ACTEC site to see how computerised voting systems should be handled.

As a result of the partisanship gerrymanders are common and electoral machinery may be in the hands of the party bosses - it therefore requires landslides to change governments.

Sy,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Americans are more democratic than Aussies. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Americans are not more democratic&lt;/strong&gt; - it just that they tend to do everything on the same day, and their constitutional changes are not by referendum!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacques,<br />
 There are a couple of things wrong with US electoral processes(they don&#8217;t deserve being called a system!).<br />
 1. The partisan nature of the electoral processes right down to precinct level &#8211; there are a few places that have non-partisan electoral processes like Iowa, and<br />
 2. FPTP particularly when used in conjunction with insecure computer voting &#8211; in the US computer voting systems are little more than overpriced abacuses because they do not keep a record of each individual vote as is required anywhere preferential voting is used. Have a look at ACTEC site to see how computerised voting systems should be handled.</p>
<p>As a result of the partisanship gerrymanders are common and electoral machinery may be in the hands of the party bosses &#8211; it therefore requires landslides to change governments.</p>
<p>Sy,</p>
<blockquote><p>Americans are more democratic than Aussies. </p></blockquote>
<p><strong>Americans are not more democratic</strong> &#8211; it just that they tend to do everything on the same day, and their constitutional changes are not by referendum!</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-223149</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-223149</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Same as doing it by pencil except that it would be instantly counted as well. If there was a discrepancy, the paper would take precedent.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In practice most votes wind up being hand-counted anyway, and the discrepancy between counts just makes things worse. You need a trustworthy system in the first place.

&lt;blockquote&gt;And while the Australian method of counting is more transparent if you talk to Americans many believe their process is less contaminated than ours seeing its untouched by human hands.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I see that point of view, but the secret sauce of our system is scrutineers. Mutual distrust ensures that almost any potential corruption is uncovered. In the USA you get allegations of incompetence and corruption for entire districts or even states. In Australia the worst it got at the last election was arguments about who brought How To Votes into the polling area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Same as doing it by pencil except that it would be instantly counted as well. If there was a discrepancy, the paper would take precedent.</p></blockquote>
<p>In practice most votes wind up being hand-counted anyway, and the discrepancy between counts just makes things worse. You need a trustworthy system in the first place.</p>
<blockquote><p>And while the Australian method of counting is more transparent if you talk to Americans many believe their process is less contaminated than ours seeing its untouched by human hands.</p></blockquote>
<p>I see that point of view, but the secret sauce of our system is scrutineers. Mutual distrust ensures that almost any potential corruption is uncovered. In the USA you get allegations of incompetence and corruption for entire districts or even states. In Australia the worst it got at the last election was arguments about who brought How To Votes into the polling area.</p>
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		<title>By: Syd Webb</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-222910</link>
		<dc:creator>Syd Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 05:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-222910</guid>
		<description>Mike Pepperday wrote:

&lt;i&gt;It seems so simple. Am I overlooking something?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes.  Americans are more democratic than Aussies.  On election day we only vote for our MHR and a bunch of senators - and maybe a referendum or two.

On an American election day our cousins can be voting for president, senator, representative, governor, state senator, state representative, mayor, local councillor, judges, sheriff and dogcatcher to name but a few.  Oh, and a bewildering number of &#039;propositions&#039; at both the state and county level.

Also polling booths are more poorly staffed in the US than Australia - here voting is compulsory so authorities make it easy as possible to vote.  The upshot is that automation is forced on most polling booths.  [I say &#039;most&#039; because elections are run at a local or state level so terms and conditions vary.]  And while the Australian method of counting is more transparent if you talk to Americans many believe their process is less &#039;contaminated&#039; than ours seeing it&#039;s untouched by human hands.

There seems to be massive inertia in the US electoral system since the end of the Cold War.  These days Americans are more likely to emphasise that they are a republic and not a democracy.  I can&#039;t see a reform of the magnitude of their 1965 Voting Act for a long time to come.  And with any proposed change we must ask the question _Cuo bono?_ &quot;Who benefits?&quot;  The existing politicians owe their positions to the existing system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Pepperday wrote:</p>
<p><i>It seems so simple. Am I overlooking something?</i></p>
<p>Yes.  Americans are more democratic than Aussies.  On election day we only vote for our MHR and a bunch of senators &#8211; and maybe a referendum or two.</p>
<p>On an American election day our cousins can be voting for president, senator, representative, governor, state senator, state representative, mayor, local councillor, judges, sheriff and dogcatcher to name but a few.  Oh, and a bewildering number of &#8216;propositions&#8217; at both the state and county level.</p>
<p>Also polling booths are more poorly staffed in the US than Australia &#8211; here voting is compulsory so authorities make it easy as possible to vote.  The upshot is that automation is forced on most polling booths.  [I say 'most' because elections are run at a local or state level so terms and conditions vary.]  And while the Australian method of counting is more transparent if you talk to Americans many believe their process is less &#8216;contaminated&#8217; than ours seeing it&#8217;s untouched by human hands.</p>
<p>There seems to be massive inertia in the US electoral system since the end of the Cold War.  These days Americans are more likely to emphasise that they are a republic and not a democracy.  I can&#8217;t see a reform of the magnitude of their 1965 Voting Act for a long time to come.  And with any proposed change we must ask the question _Cuo bono?_ &#8220;Who benefits?&#8221;  The existing politicians owe their positions to the existing system.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Pepperday</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-222717</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Pepperday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/01/12/another-impossibility-for-arrow/#comment-222717</guid>
		<description>Yes, the scrutineering seems so bloody obvious, doesn&#039;t it?  

I wonder why it is so hard.  I don&#039;t mean the fact that the US doesn&#039;t have the independent electoral commission - that will be hard to change.  I mean  the voting machine drama.  Why the fancy machines that they can never get right?  

Why not just have an ordinary computer with a printer?  You&#039;d vote with a mouse on a ballot &quot;paper&quot; on the screen and get a print out to deposit in the ballot box in the ordinary way.    

Same as doing it by pencil except that it would be instantly counted as well.  If there was a discrepancy, the paper would take precedent.  It could reduce informals to nil, too.  

I&#039;ve been wondering this for years.  It seems so simple. Am I overlooking something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the scrutineering seems so bloody obvious, doesn&#8217;t it?  </p>
<p>I wonder why it is so hard.  I don&#8217;t mean the fact that the US doesn&#8217;t have the independent electoral commission &#8211; that will be hard to change.  I mean  the voting machine drama.  Why the fancy machines that they can never get right?  </p>
<p>Why not just have an ordinary computer with a printer?  You&#8217;d vote with a mouse on a ballot &#8220;paper&#8221; on the screen and get a print out to deposit in the ballot box in the ordinary way.    </p>
<p>Same as doing it by pencil except that it would be instantly counted as well.  If there was a discrepancy, the paper would take precedent.  It could reduce informals to nil, too.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been wondering this for years.  It seems so simple. Am I overlooking something?</p>
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