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	<title>Comments on: The Negative Capability of Abraham Lincoln: The First American Pragmatist?</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Ingolf</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239331</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239331</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Nicholas.

I can&#039;t vouch for its historical accuracy (although I&#039;d guess it&#039;s probably pretty good) but Gore Vidal&#039;s &quot;Lincoln&quot; is a wonderful read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Nicholas.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t vouch for its historical accuracy (although I&#8217;d guess it&#8217;s probably pretty good) but Gore Vidal&#8217;s &#8220;Lincoln&#8221; is a wonderful read.</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239279</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Possibly early examples of the political radio grab? (I have read that the speeches were sometimes read out on BBC radio by an actor.) 

After encountering the Churchill speeches on Simon Schama&#039;s history of Britain documentary a few years ago, I was inspired enough to go out and borrow a copy of Churchill speeches from the library, and was a little surprised by the length of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Possibly early examples of the political radio grab? (I have read that the speeches were sometimes read out on BBC radio by an actor.) </p>
<p>After encountering the Churchill speeches on Simon Schama&#8217;s history of Britain documentary a few years ago, I was inspired enough to go out and borrow a copy of Churchill speeches from the library, and was a little surprised by the length of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239254</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239254</guid>
		<description>TimT, on Churchill, I wasn&#039;t claiming his speeches were short - just noting the exception. Churchill&#039;s speeches were often long.  But one thing to note is that a lot of the most famous lines were tucked into long and not particularly distinguished speeches.  &quot;We&#039;ll fight them on the beaches&quot; is a just a coda to a speech which rambles about the retreat from Dunkirk, rounding up enemy aliens (like my Dad) and various other things. 

Then he winds himself up for a few zingers at the end and that&#039;s that.  I&#039;m a big fan of Churchill in lots of ways, and of his great speeches, but thinking about it, they&#039;re just great rhetoric.  Their distinction is that they embody Churchill&#039;s indefatigable (and foolhardy) physical courage.  Lincoln&#039;s on the other hand it seems to me having thought about it a bit are on a much higher plane.  He&#039;s really trying to say some difficult things. And he subverts the form of the great speech because he intends also to subvert the function of a great speech.  He&#039;s not really rousing the troops.  In many ways it&#039;s the opposite of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimT, on Churchill, I wasn&#8217;t claiming his speeches were short &#8211; just noting the exception. Churchill&#8217;s speeches were often long.  But one thing to note is that a lot of the most famous lines were tucked into long and not particularly distinguished speeches.  &#8220;We&#8217;ll fight them on the beaches&#8221; is a just a coda to a speech which rambles about the retreat from Dunkirk, rounding up enemy aliens (like my Dad) and various other things. </p>
<p>Then he winds himself up for a few zingers at the end and that&#8217;s that.  I&#8217;m a big fan of Churchill in lots of ways, and of his great speeches, but thinking about it, they&#8217;re just great rhetoric.  Their distinction is that they embody Churchill&#8217;s indefatigable (and foolhardy) physical courage.  Lincoln&#8217;s on the other hand it seems to me having thought about it a bit are on a much higher plane.  He&#8217;s really trying to say some difficult things. And he subverts the form of the great speech because he intends also to subvert the function of a great speech.  He&#8217;s not really rousing the troops.  In many ways it&#8217;s the opposite of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239249</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239249</guid>
		<description>People who make that kind of excuse are the kind of people who make that excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who make that kind of excuse are the kind of people who make that excuse.</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239240</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hmmm, it was a long time ago Nabakov, that&#039;s my excuse - thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, it was a long time ago Nabakov, that&#8217;s my excuse &#8211; thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239231</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239231</guid>
		<description>TimT, the actual Lincoln quote is:

&quot;People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimT, the actual Lincoln quote is:</p>
<p>&#8220;People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stumblng Tumblr</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239181</link>
		<dc:creator>Stumblng Tumblr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 01:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I came to Lincoln very late, I admit, having just read my first book ever about him: Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals. I found it a very enjoyable book and would recommend it others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came to Lincoln very late, I admit, having just read my first book ever about him: Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals. I found it a very enjoyable book and would recommend it others.</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239139</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Heh. I still remember Peter Ryan quoting the conclusion Lincoln gave in a book review one time: &quot;In the end, this is a book that some people will enjoy, and other people will not enjoy.&quot; Just perfect - perfectly infuriating, that is!

A bit misleading about the Churchill speech; his most famous remarks are from long speeches, and although he did originally make the remark &#039;Blood, toil, tears and sweat&#039; on Cabinet, he later expanded upon it substantially, and some of the other remarks made in this speech are almost as famous: 

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=391</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. I still remember Peter Ryan quoting the conclusion Lincoln gave in a book review one time: &#8220;In the end, this is a book that some people will enjoy, and other people will not enjoy.&#8221; Just perfect &#8211; perfectly infuriating, that is!</p>
<p>A bit misleading about the Churchill speech; his most famous remarks are from long speeches, and although he did originally make the remark &#8216;Blood, toil, tears and sweat&#8217; on Cabinet, he later expanded upon it substantially, and some of the other remarks made in this speech are almost as famous: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=391">http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=391</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239124</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, sorry PeterC.  A typo. 

Patrick, that&#039;s the one mark looming large over Lincoln.  As a product of his time he saw the national as some absolute. I suspect allowing secession would have been a better thing to do.  The line in the second inaugural about all that blood we&#039;re going to shed - the last man and last shilling kind of stuff - isn&#039;t a good look from this distance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, sorry PeterC.  A typo. </p>
<p>Patrick, that&#8217;s the one mark looming large over Lincoln.  As a product of his time he saw the national as some absolute. I suspect allowing secession would have been a better thing to do.  The line in the second inaugural about all that blood we&#8217;re going to shed &#8211; the last man and last shilling kind of stuff &#8211; isn&#8217;t a good look from this distance.</p>
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		<title>By: PeterC</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239083</link>
		<dc:creator>PeterC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Andrew Jackson, the drunkard southerner...&quot;

Andrew Johnson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Andrew Jackson, the drunkard southerner&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Andrew Johnson.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/17/the-negative-capability-of-abraham-lincoln-the-first-american-pragmatist/#comment-239075</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Nick.

I too admire Lincoln, very very much. It is perhaps hard to tell with the passage of a century or so whether he has been overly hagiographised, but I haven&#039;t seen any suggestion of it.

As a child I had to learn, amongst others, the Gettysburg address off by heart. I enjoyed it thoroughly, even then.

And maybe you are right about American pragmatism. After all there is Lincoln&#039;s response to being informed that Grant drunk a bottle of whisky a day (then send all my generals a case of it!). And there is the sheer horror and carnage of that war - if America had fought any of its subsequent wars with such ferocity and ruthlessness as Sherman burnt the South, they would have been much shorter and far more devastating.

Not to mention the mental challenge of adjusting to the new status quo - for both sides of both conflicts (North/South; White/Black).

Fertile grounds for pragmatism.

But then again, and Lincoln is one of my all-time political heroes, how terrible that pragmatism was. Would a more pragmatic George Bush have simply burned the Middle East from the Gulf to the Caspian? Or was Lincoln in part a product of his time, and only in human measure able to surpass it and its unfathomable daily quotient of misery?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Nick.</p>
<p>I too admire Lincoln, very very much. It is perhaps hard to tell with the passage of a century or so whether he has been overly hagiographised, but I haven&#8217;t seen any suggestion of it.</p>
<p>As a child I had to learn, amongst others, the Gettysburg address off by heart. I enjoyed it thoroughly, even then.</p>
<p>And maybe you are right about American pragmatism. After all there is Lincoln&#8217;s response to being informed that Grant drunk a bottle of whisky a day (then send all my generals a case of it!). And there is the sheer horror and carnage of that war &#8211; if America had fought any of its subsequent wars with such ferocity and ruthlessness as Sherman burnt the South, they would have been much shorter and far more devastating.</p>
<p>Not to mention the mental challenge of adjusting to the new status quo &#8211; for both sides of both conflicts (North/South; White/Black).</p>
<p>Fertile grounds for pragmatism.</p>
<p>But then again, and Lincoln is one of my all-time political heroes, how terrible that pragmatism was. Would a more pragmatic George Bush have simply burned the Middle East from the Gulf to the Caspian? Or was Lincoln in part a product of his time, and only in human measure able to surpass it and its unfathomable daily quotient of misery?</p>
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