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	<title>Comments on: William F Buckley and the Politics of Kicks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245520</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245520</guid>
		<description>Did I say you were?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I say you were?</p>
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		<title>By: THR</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245466</link>
		<dc:creator>THR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 06:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245466</guid>
		<description>Whose praising the dems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whose praising the dems?</p>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245441</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 04:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245441</guid>
		<description>THR:

I'm not defending him as I think was a gaseous old windbag, but 1957 is a little gap between 2008 and holding people to present standards ( he did actually racant those views) would also mean we ought lift Senator Robert Byrd's coffin lid and see what comes of there. Bobby Byrd was a high up member of the KKK and is now the most senior (dem) senator in congress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THR:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not defending him as I think was a gaseous old windbag, but 1957 is a little gap between 2008 and holding people to present standards ( he did actually racant those views) would also mean we ought lift Senator Robert Byrd&#8217;s coffin lid and see what comes of there. Bobby Byrd was a high up member of the KKK and is now the most senior (dem) senator in congress.</p>
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		<title>By: THR</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245436</link>
		<dc:creator>THR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 04:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245436</guid>
		<description>In addition to gay-baiting, and being slaughtered by Chomsky in a debate (it's on You Tube), 'urbane' spokesman for conservatism Buckley came up with some other pearlers, such as:

&lt;i&gt;“The central question that emerges…is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas where it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes—the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race.”
—William F. Buckley, National Review, August 24, 1957&lt;/i&gt;

He also suggested that the uneducated should be denied the vote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/business/media/27cnd-buckley.html?_r=3&#38;hp=&#38;oref=login&#38;pagewanted=print&#38;oref=slogin&#38;oref=slogin

and he did a stint in the CIA. Nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to gay-baiting, and being slaughtered by Chomsky in a debate (it&#8217;s on You Tube), &#8216;urbane&#8217; spokesman for conservatism Buckley came up with some other pearlers, such as:</p>
<p><i>“The central question that emerges…is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas where it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes—the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race.”<br />
—William F. Buckley, National Review, August 24, 1957</i></p>
<p>He also suggested that the uneducated should be denied the vote:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/business/media/27cnd-buckley.html?_r=3&amp;hp=&amp;oref=login&amp;pagewanted=print&amp;oref=slogin&amp;oref=slogin" >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/business/media/27cnd-buckley.html?_r=3&amp;hp=&amp;oref=login&amp;pagewanted=print&amp;oref=slogin&amp;oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>and he did a stint in the CIA. Nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245402</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245402</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s a mistake to think that intelligent, educated people will naturally embrace ‘progressive’ attitudes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So being tolerent of gays and minorities is now a progressive ideal? Is that monopoly, don? Do we have to call the ACCC for a fair hearing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It’s a mistake to think that intelligent, educated people will naturally embrace ‘progressive’ attitudes.</p></blockquote>
<p>So being tolerent of gays and minorities is now a progressive ideal? Is that monopoly, don? Do we have to call the ACCC for a fair hearing?</p>
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		<title>By: Jage</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245353</link>
		<dc:creator>Jage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245353</guid>
		<description>Patrick

Interesting thought 'the progressives' predecessors.' I never quite get what folks are referring to when they describe others/themselves as 'progressive.' Please explain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick</p>
<p>Interesting thought &#8216;the progressives&#8217; predecessors.&#8217; I never quite get what folks are referring to when they describe others/themselves as &#8216;progressive.&#8217; Please explain.</p>
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		<title>By: Jage</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245349</link>
		<dc:creator>Jage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245349</guid>
		<description>Nicholas

I think it is a just tad precious to insist "Buckley’s gay baiting in the clip is completely disgraceful and disgusting." We ARE talking about 1969 here. Remember, in 1969 homosexuality was a crime in every state of Australia. If you bare familiar with Vidal's oeuvre, you would know that he dishes out much worse.


I wonder how many of the "progressives" here could have thrown the first stone in 1969?  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas</p>
<p>I think it is a just tad precious to insist &#8220;Buckley’s gay baiting in the clip is completely disgraceful and disgusting.&#8221; We ARE talking about 1969 here. Remember, in 1969 homosexuality was a crime in every state of Australia. If you bare familiar with Vidal&#8217;s oeuvre, you would know that he dishes out much worse.</p>
<p>I wonder how many of the &#8220;progressives&#8221; here could have thrown the first stone in 1969?  <img src='http://clubtroppo.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245322</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 00:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245322</guid>
		<description>From Brink Lindsey:
&lt;blockquote&gt;The point here isn’t to bash conservatives for benighted views from decades ago that most people on the contemporary right don’t hold. The point, rather, is that conservatives today should reflect on the fact that their predecessors did sometimes say embarrassing or even shameful things in the name of defending “traditional values.” Such reflection should lead to the conclusion that indiscriminate defense of traditional values isn’t proper conservatism at all. It’s reactionary populism.

Conservatives should therefore recognize that lapsing into reactionary cultural populism is a characteristic vice of the right, and they should be on their guard against it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Fair point, and indeed I aspire to the contrary order - indiscriminate embrace of libertarian ideals tempered by deep respect for the value of tradition and awareness of human fragility.

But in equal measure progressives should reflect on the fact that their predecessors did often say embarrasing or even shameful things in the name of advocating 'progress' and condemning tradition. Such reflection should lead to the conclusion that indiscriminate advocacy of progress doesn't lead to proper progress at all. It leads to the breakdown of human norms, chaos and ultimately, if unchecked, communism.

Progressives should therefore recognize that lapsing into reactionary condemnation of tradition and traditional structures is a characteristic vice of the left, and they should be on their guard against it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Brink Lindsey:</p>
<blockquote><p>The point here isn’t to bash conservatives for benighted views from decades ago that most people on the contemporary right don’t hold. The point, rather, is that conservatives today should reflect on the fact that their predecessors did sometimes say embarrassing or even shameful things in the name of defending “traditional values.” Such reflection should lead to the conclusion that indiscriminate defense of traditional values isn’t proper conservatism at all. It’s reactionary populism.</p>
<p>Conservatives should therefore recognize that lapsing into reactionary cultural populism is a characteristic vice of the right, and they should be on their guard against it. </p></blockquote>
<p>Fair point, and indeed I aspire to the contrary order - indiscriminate embrace of libertarian ideals tempered by deep respect for the value of tradition and awareness of human fragility.</p>
<p>But in equal measure progressives should reflect on the fact that their predecessors did often say embarrasing or even shameful things in the name of advocating &#8216;progress&#8217; and condemning tradition. Such reflection should lead to the conclusion that indiscriminate advocacy of progress doesn&#8217;t lead to proper progress at all. It leads to the breakdown of human norms, chaos and ultimately, if unchecked, communism.</p>
<p>Progressives should therefore recognize that lapsing into reactionary condemnation of tradition and traditional structures is a characteristic vice of the left, and they should be on their guard against it.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245278</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245278</guid>
		<description>What's this nonsense about prejudice against an 'out group'?

I'll let &lt;a href="http://www.brinklindsey.com/?p=131" rel="nofollow"&gt;Brink Lindsey explain&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s this nonsense about prejudice against an &#8216;out group&#8217;?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll let <a href="http://www.brinklindsey.com/?p=131" >Brink Lindsey explain</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Soon</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245261</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Soon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245261</guid>
		<description>Oh for god's sake Don, you're talking as if Buckley was personally sending gays to the gas chambers. He lost his temper and when you do and you want to hurt the object of your attack you reach for the word which you think is most likely to sting. Vidal did the same. There were plenty of gays and lesbians in the conservative crowd that Buckley would have admired and even employed at National Review (the most obvious being Florence King). what's this nonsense about prejudice against an 'out group'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh for god&#8217;s sake Don, you&#8217;re talking as if Buckley was personally sending gays to the gas chambers. He lost his temper and when you do and you want to hurt the object of your attack you reach for the word which you think is most likely to sting. Vidal did the same. There were plenty of gays and lesbians in the conservative crowd that Buckley would have admired and even employed at National Review (the most obvious being Florence King). what&#8217;s this nonsense about prejudice against an &#8216;out group&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245250</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245250</guid>
		<description>And by the late 1960s television producers had figured out that many viewers liked watching people saying disgraceful and disgusting things. ABC deliberately chose to put Vidal and Buckley together because they knew that they'd provoke each other.

Afterwards &lt;a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060326111414/http://www.columbia.edu/~tdk3/vidalesquire69.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Vidal seemed pleased with the performance&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;on Wednesday, August 28, at nine-thirty o'clock, in full view of ten million people, the little door in William F. Buckley Jr.'s forehead suddenly opened and out sprang that wild cuckoo which I had always known was there but had wanted so much for others, preferably millions of others, to get a good look at. I think those few seconds of madness, to use his word, were well worth a great deal of patient effort on my part.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

At the time many left wing intellectuals thought that Buckley got away with expressing offensive opinions because he seemed so charming and articulate. They thought people were taken in by his style. That's why Vidal thought that he'd won some kind of victory. I think they made a mistake about this. A lot of people listened to Buckley because they agreed with his ideas.

It's a mistake to think that intelligent, educated people will naturally embrace 'progressive' attitudes. Intelligence and education might prevent you from believing that the earth is flat but they won't automatically prevent you from being prejudiced against out groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And by the late 1960s television producers had figured out that many viewers liked watching people saying disgraceful and disgusting things. ABC deliberately chose to put Vidal and Buckley together because they knew that they&#8217;d provoke each other.</p>
<p>Afterwards <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060326111414/http://www.columbia.edu/~tdk3/vidalesquire69.html" >Vidal seemed pleased with the performance</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>on Wednesday, August 28, at nine-thirty o&#8217;clock, in full view of ten million people, the little door in William F. Buckley Jr.&#8217;s forehead suddenly opened and out sprang that wild cuckoo which I had always known was there but had wanted so much for others, preferably millions of others, to get a good look at. I think those few seconds of madness, to use his word, were well worth a great deal of patient effort on my part.</p></blockquote>
<p>At the time many left wing intellectuals thought that Buckley got away with expressing offensive opinions because he seemed so charming and articulate. They thought people were taken in by his style. That&#8217;s why Vidal thought that he&#8217;d won some kind of victory. I think they made a mistake about this. A lot of people listened to Buckley because they agreed with his ideas.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a mistake to think that intelligent, educated people will naturally embrace &#8216;progressive&#8217; attitudes. Intelligence and education might prevent you from believing that the earth is flat but they won&#8217;t automatically prevent you from being prejudiced against out groups.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245249</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245249</guid>
		<description>Both accusations were accurate. But only Buckley was really hurt, as he should have been.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both accusations were accurate. But only Buckley was really hurt, as he should have been.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245079</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 11:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-245079</guid>
		<description>Buckley's gay baiting in the clip is completely disgraceful and disgusting.  Sadly no more than Vidal's 'proto nazi' comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buckley&#8217;s gay baiting in the clip is completely disgraceful and disgusting.  Sadly no more than Vidal&#8217;s &#8216;proto nazi&#8217; comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244825</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244825</guid>
		<description>Can you understand what he's saying in those clips, Don? Imagine enduring an hour of that mubbling waffle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you understand what he&#8217;s saying in those clips, Don? Imagine enduring an hour of that mubbling waffle.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244777</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 20:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244777</guid>
		<description>PBS kept him on to damage the right? Well maybe ... and &lt;a href="http://www.salon.com/media/lehm/1999/01/07lehm.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;maybe because the Olin Foundation kept paying for it&lt;/a&gt;.

Any show that runs for thirty plus years is going to get tired. But most commentators seem to agree that Firing Line was influential. For example, here's &lt;a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B01E7D71230F93BA25751C1A96F958260&#38;fta=y" rel="nofollow"&gt;Laurence Zuckerman in the NYT&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;At the beginning, Mr. Buckley, who was a skilled debater from his student days at Yale, set out to eviscerate his opponents. Mr. Judis wrote that Neal Freeman, Mr. Buckley's personal assistant at the time, modeled the program after the Friday night fights that were then nationally televised.

The guest on the first ''Firing Line'' was Norman Thomas, the Socialist and perennial presidential candidate, who by then was 81 and losing his eyesight. ''When you argue with a man who is old and blind, you are pretty tough,'' said Warren Steibel, producer and director of ''Firing Line'' since its early days. But ''it made good theater,'' he added.

And good television. Mr. Buckley drove liberal viewers around the bend by defending Senator Joseph McCarthy, tarring his guests as communists and questioning such liberal orthodoxy as universal voting rights in the South. With his tousled hair, blue eyes that tended to bulge like an exotic lizard's, portentous vocabulary and halting patrician speech, he quickly established himself as the face of a new kind of conservatism: intelligent, urbane, witty, cutting.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PBS kept him on to damage the right? Well maybe &#8230; and <a href="http://www.salon.com/media/lehm/1999/01/07lehm.html" >maybe because the Olin Foundation kept paying for it</a>.</p>
<p>Any show that runs for thirty plus years is going to get tired. But most commentators seem to agree that Firing Line was influential. For example, here&#8217;s <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B01E7D71230F93BA25751C1A96F958260&amp;fta=y" >Laurence Zuckerman in the NYT</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>At the beginning, Mr. Buckley, who was a skilled debater from his student days at Yale, set out to eviscerate his opponents. Mr. Judis wrote that Neal Freeman, Mr. Buckley&#8217;s personal assistant at the time, modeled the program after the Friday night fights that were then nationally televised.</p>
<p>The guest on the first &#8221;Firing Line&#8221; was Norman Thomas, the Socialist and perennial presidential candidate, who by then was 81 and losing his eyesight. &#8221;When you argue with a man who is old and blind, you are pretty tough,&#8221; said Warren Steibel, producer and director of &#8221;Firing Line&#8221; since its early days. But &#8221;it made good theater,&#8221; he added.</p>
<p>And good television. Mr. Buckley drove liberal viewers around the bend by defending Senator Joseph McCarthy, tarring his guests as communists and questioning such liberal orthodoxy as universal voting rights in the South. With his tousled hair, blue eyes that tended to bulge like an exotic lizard&#8217;s, portentous vocabulary and halting patrician speech, he quickly established himself as the face of a new kind of conservatism: intelligent, urbane, witty, cutting.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244701</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/03/02/william-f-buckley-and-the-politics-of-kicks/#comment-244701</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Everyone agreed that William F Buckley was good television.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You reckon? It was awful television. I think there were 5 people in the entire US that would watch Firing Line in the end. I was one of them :-) He was a awful waffler but he did have good guests on and you could at least listen to them-1/2 the debate.. It was actually hard making out what he was saying. I used to think PBS kept him on to damage the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Everyone agreed that William F Buckley was good television.</p></blockquote>
<p>You reckon? It was awful television. I think there were 5 people in the entire US that would watch Firing Line in the end. I was one of them <img src='http://clubtroppo.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> He was a awful waffler but he did have good guests on and you could at least listen to them-1/2 the debate.. It was actually hard making out what he was saying. I used to think PBS kept him on to damage the right.</p>
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