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	<title>Comments on: Income inequality in the noughties - how far would you go to fix it?</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer &#187; So, what does &#8216;progressive fusionism&#8217; look like?</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-269478</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer &#187; So, what does &#8216;progressive fusionism&#8217; look like?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-269478</guid>
		<description>[...] Don Arthur over at Club Troppo, and followed up by Andrew Norton, Andrew Leigh, Will Wilkinson and Backroom Girl. The idea that libertarians and &#8216;progressives&#8217; could hammer out some of their [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Don Arthur over at Club Troppo, and followed up by Andrew Norton, Andrew Leigh, Will Wilkinson and Backroom Girl. The idea that libertarians and &#8216;progressives&#8217; could hammer out some of their [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261373</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261373</guid>
		<description>On teenage pregnancy/termination/birth, I believe that we are quite a lot higher than almost all European countries on all three (except for the UK, where there is a much larger 'black' population).  

I don't know whether anyone has done a study here, but I would suspect that the incidence of termination in Australia is positively correlated with SES - I suspect that not too many teenage pregnancies in middle class families proceed to term here.  

And while I'm sure that it's probably not all that much fun thinking that Centrelink is looking over your shoulder and analysing the status of your relationship, I was interested to discover once that of all the 'overpayments' raised by Centrelink because of marriage-like relationships, the average was around a year's worth of income support.  This suggested two things to me:

*  first, that if left to their own devices most people take a long time to get around to telling Centrelink that their relationship status has changed; and
*  second, that Centrelink don't pursue these cases unless it's pretty clear that the new partner has ample resources to provide support (if the new partner is also on income support, for example, the overpayment is only the difference between the single pension rate and the partnered allowance rate - so unlikely to give rise to such a large overpayment).

The other thing that would likely give Centrelink pause is that it is really pretty difficult to win 'marriage-like relationship' cases if the customer decides to contest them in the tribunals and/or courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On teenage pregnancy/termination/birth, I believe that we are quite a lot higher than almost all European countries on all three (except for the UK, where there is a much larger &#8216;black&#8217; population).  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know whether anyone has done a study here, but I would suspect that the incidence of termination in Australia is positively correlated with SES - I suspect that not too many teenage pregnancies in middle class families proceed to term here.  </p>
<p>And while I&#8217;m sure that it&#8217;s probably not all that much fun thinking that Centrelink is looking over your shoulder and analysing the status of your relationship, I was interested to discover once that of all the &#8216;overpayments&#8217; raised by Centrelink because of marriage-like relationships, the average was around a year&#8217;s worth of income support.  This suggested two things to me:</p>
<p>*  first, that if left to their own devices most people take a long time to get around to telling Centrelink that their relationship status has changed; and<br />
*  second, that Centrelink don&#8217;t pursue these cases unless it&#8217;s pretty clear that the new partner has ample resources to provide support (if the new partner is also on income support, for example, the overpayment is only the difference between the single pension rate and the partnered allowance rate - so unlikely to give rise to such a large overpayment).</p>
<p>The other thing that would likely give Centrelink pause is that it is really pretty difficult to win &#8216;marriage-like relationship&#8217; cases if the customer decides to contest them in the tribunals and/or courts.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261360</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 05:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261360</guid>
		<description>BG, then it would seem like generous single parent benefits should be an effective way to keep abortion rates down - except that Australia's abortion rates are actually quite high compared to, say, most continental European nations.

Re reporting vs forming: it's hard not to wonder whether Centrelink's recent advertising blitz on the evils of not being entirely truthful when claiming benefits has led to otherwise happily cohabiting couples splitting up on the basis that the risk of being caught and the downside to reduced payments outweighed the pros of cohabitation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BG, then it would seem like generous single parent benefits should be an effective way to keep abortion rates down - except that Australia&#8217;s abortion rates are actually quite high compared to, say, most continental European nations.</p>
<p>Re reporting vs forming: it&#8217;s hard not to wonder whether Centrelink&#8217;s recent advertising blitz on the evils of not being entirely truthful when claiming benefits has led to otherwise happily cohabiting couples splitting up on the basis that the risk of being caught and the downside to reduced payments outweighed the pros of cohabitation.</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261340</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261340</guid>
		<description>And you are right too Spog - I just didn't want to cast aspersions on the truthfulness of single parent welfare recipients :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And you are right too Spog - I just didn&#8217;t want to cast aspersions on the truthfulness of single parent welfare recipients <img src='http://clubtroppo.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261337</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261337</guid>
		<description>NPOV - the only 'evidence' I'm aware of about the effects of the baby bonus is that teenage birth rates have gone up marginally in the smaller States and Territories (everywhere except Vic and NSW) - probably a bit early to draw any conclusions as yet.  But again, there are plenty of stories around about young women in poor, especially indigenous, communities - but not so much about them having babies to get the money, more about what happens to the money afterwards.  

I agree with you that I don't think most poor teenagers (for whom you could imagine the idea of an extra $5000 might be pretty alluring) would have a baby just for the money. But on the other hand, if you were a poor young woman with few other prospects in life and you accidentally got pregnant, I could imagine that the prospect of the baby bonus and much more generous income support than you could otherwise look forward to might help to sway your decision about whether to continue with the pregnancy.

Patrick - as far as I know US Welfare Reform did significantly increase the employment rate of single parents but didn't have any affect on rates of marriage (which was a subsidiary objective). But the US case is another one where the financial incentives in favour of single parenthood are fairly clear cut. Their official attitude to de facto relationships is a bit like ours to same-sex relationships - if you're not married the relationship doesn't exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NPOV - the only &#8216;evidence&#8217; I&#8217;m aware of about the effects of the baby bonus is that teenage birth rates have gone up marginally in the smaller States and Territories (everywhere except Vic and NSW) - probably a bit early to draw any conclusions as yet.  But again, there are plenty of stories around about young women in poor, especially indigenous, communities - but not so much about them having babies to get the money, more about what happens to the money afterwards.  </p>
<p>I agree with you that I don&#8217;t think most poor teenagers (for whom you could imagine the idea of an extra $5000 might be pretty alluring) would have a baby just for the money. But on the other hand, if you were a poor young woman with few other prospects in life and you accidentally got pregnant, I could imagine that the prospect of the baby bonus and much more generous income support than you could otherwise look forward to might help to sway your decision about whether to continue with the pregnancy.</p>
<p>Patrick - as far as I know US Welfare Reform did significantly increase the employment rate of single parents but didn&#8217;t have any affect on rates of marriage (which was a subsidiary objective). But the US case is another one where the financial incentives in favour of single parenthood are fairly clear cut. Their official attitude to de facto relationships is a bit like ours to same-sex relationships - if you&#8217;re not married the relationship doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261334</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261334</guid>
		<description>I think BG would agree that the partnering disinentive she refers to is not all, or perhaps even mainly, about relationships not forming.  There is a significant penalty attached to reporting said relationship to Centrelink, not forming it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think BG would agree that the partnering disinentive she refers to is not all, or perhaps even mainly, about relationships not forming.  There is a significant penalty attached to reporting said relationship to Centrelink, not forming it.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261266</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261266</guid>
		<description>Didn't welfare reform in the late 90s in the US significantly reduce unemployed single parents?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t welfare reform in the late 90s in the US significantly reduce unemployed single parents?</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261259</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261259</guid>
		<description>Sure, I can imagine that low-income earners might hesitate to move into together on the basis of reduced financial assistance.  And if this is having a discernible impact on their ability to establish long-term stable relationships then there's reason for concern.
I'm more bothered about people that make claims like "single parent payments and the baby bonus are encouraging women to get pregnant just so they can get the money (and then spend it plasma TVs)".  Now, I'm not a big supporter of the baby bonus particularly, but comments like that really don't seem to be made out of any genuine concern for the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, I can imagine that low-income earners might hesitate to move into together on the basis of reduced financial assistance.  And if this is having a discernible impact on their ability to establish long-term stable relationships then there&#8217;s reason for concern.<br />
I&#8217;m more bothered about people that make claims like &#8220;single parent payments and the baby bonus are encouraging women to get pregnant just so they can get the money (and then spend it plasma TVs)&#8221;.  Now, I&#8217;m not a big supporter of the baby bonus particularly, but comments like that really don&#8217;t seem to be made out of any genuine concern for the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261248</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261248</guid>
		<description>You know, NPOV, no-one would ever claim that financial incentives affect everyone's behaviour just that they affect some people's behaviour.  Unless you are claiming that no-one's behaviour is affected (a pretty tall order I would have thought), then all there is to argue about is whether the effects are large enough to cause concern.

Australia does have a lot more single parents than many other countries and I think Peter Whiteford would be able to confirm that we have more generous 'social assistance' type income support for single parents than most other countries.

And behaviour can be affected in more ways than one.  There is evidence from AIFS research, for example, that lower income people are less likely than those from higher-income groups to form co-resident partnerships after divorce.  That is, they do form new relationships, but are less likely to move in together.

And I think that anyone who works with low-income people on a regular basis would be able to give you any number of anecdotal examples of people reacting to financial incentives.  It stands to reason that if you need to be in particular category or do some particular thing in order to get income support and you need the money, people will find a way to do that.  I'm not judging, just observing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, NPOV, no-one would ever claim that financial incentives affect everyone&#8217;s behaviour just that they affect some people&#8217;s behaviour.  Unless you are claiming that no-one&#8217;s behaviour is affected (a pretty tall order I would have thought), then all there is to argue about is whether the effects are large enough to cause concern.</p>
<p>Australia does have a lot more single parents than many other countries and I think Peter Whiteford would be able to confirm that we have more generous &#8217;social assistance&#8217; type income support for single parents than most other countries.</p>
<p>And behaviour can be affected in more ways than one.  There is evidence from AIFS research, for example, that lower income people are less likely than those from higher-income groups to form co-resident partnerships after divorce.  That is, they do form new relationships, but are less likely to move in together.</p>
<p>And I think that anyone who works with low-income people on a regular basis would be able to give you any number of anecdotal examples of people reacting to financial incentives.  It stands to reason that if you need to be in particular category or do some particular thing in order to get income support and you need the money, people will find a way to do that.  I&#8217;m not judging, just observing.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261244</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261244</guid>
		<description>BG, I don't think I ever thought (or claimed) you were being "mean" to single parents, but I do question claims that there the financial discentives to repartner have much effect on actual behaviour.  No-one denies that financial incentives are strong, but I really do start to wonder when it's implied that they override far more basic needs such as that for love or companionship.  When it's claimed that the structure of welfare payments cause people to end relationships, or hesitate to form new ones, or give birth to children as single parents, or even fail to use adequate contraception (supposedly because in the heat of the moment lustful individuals know they don't have to worry too much about the financical implications of accidental pregnancy), or any number of similar claims, I simply want to see the proof.  It should be relatively straightforward to provide too, as we have a range of countries all over the world with different systems, some that are very generous to single parents, others at aren't at all.  If someone can show a strong correlation between actual behaviour and welfare structure, I'm all ears.

(FWIW, as an example of the sort of mean-spiritedness that the current welfare system can exhibit - many years ago when my mother was singlehandedly responsible for raising me and my two younger sisters, when it was determined that one of my sisters was overseas for a 3 week period, the family assistance office demanded that 3 week's worth of benefits should be repaid - as though somehow having my sister out of the house for 3 weeks suddenly meant there were no expenses involved in maintaining a family of 3 children).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BG, I don&#8217;t think I ever thought (or claimed) you were being &#8220;mean&#8221; to single parents, but I do question claims that there the financial discentives to repartner have much effect on actual behaviour.  No-one denies that financial incentives are strong, but I really do start to wonder when it&#8217;s implied that they override far more basic needs such as that for love or companionship.  When it&#8217;s claimed that the structure of welfare payments cause people to end relationships, or hesitate to form new ones, or give birth to children as single parents, or even fail to use adequate contraception (supposedly because in the heat of the moment lustful individuals know they don&#8217;t have to worry too much about the financical implications of accidental pregnancy), or any number of similar claims, I simply want to see the proof.  It should be relatively straightforward to provide too, as we have a range of countries all over the world with different systems, some that are very generous to single parents, others at aren&#8217;t at all.  If someone can show a strong correlation between actual behaviour and welfare structure, I&#8217;m all ears.</p>
<p>(FWIW, as an example of the sort of mean-spiritedness that the current welfare system can exhibit - many years ago when my mother was singlehandedly responsible for raising me and my two younger sisters, when it was determined that one of my sisters was overseas for a 3 week period, the family assistance office demanded that 3 week&#8217;s worth of benefits should be repaid - as though somehow having my sister out of the house for 3 weeks suddenly meant there were no expenses involved in maintaining a family of 3 children).</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261231</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-261231</guid>
		<description>Actually, Anthony, I think I think both you and Spog are right in different ways.  There isn't really that much difference between Parenting Payment and Newstart Allowance.  It's just that one is paid without expecting the recipient to seek work (most of the time)and the other is paid only if the recipient seeks work (most of the time). There are exceptions to the general rule in both cases. 

The main compensatory element of Parenting Payment (single) is that it is a pension, rather than an allowance, which means that it is paid at a higher rate and with a more generous income test.  That, of course, goes back to the days when it was a widow's pension.  I think the latest moves under Welfare to Work (WtW) are just the inevitable consequence of women's increased engagement in the workforce, such that we are more inclined to think of jobless mothers as unemployed now, rather than just mothers (as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive). 

The other 'good' side-effect of WtW is that single parents with older children now have less financial disincentive to repartner formally. The moral hazard associated with Parenting Payment Single has more to do with disincentive to repartner (or even to reconcile) than with incentive to split up in the first place.  For many low-income single parents it just doesn't pay to repartner (or even to reconcile) with a low-income man because the income support deal that you get is so much less generous.  So it's not really their fault, it's the fault of the system.

Lest NPOV think I'm being mean to single parents again, I hasten to point out that I'm not arguing against single parent payments because they contain a degree of moral hazard.  Moral hazard is a feature of any income support system, whether funded by insurance or public revenue.  It's better, I think, to be honest about it and try to design the system in such a way as to minimise its effects than to just close your eyes to it and hope it will go away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Anthony, I think I think both you and Spog are right in different ways.  There isn&#8217;t really that much difference between Parenting Payment and Newstart Allowance.  It&#8217;s just that one is paid without expecting the recipient to seek work (most of the time)and the other is paid only if the recipient seeks work (most of the time). There are exceptions to the general rule in both cases. </p>
<p>The main compensatory element of Parenting Payment (single) is that it is a pension, rather than an allowance, which means that it is paid at a higher rate and with a more generous income test.  That, of course, goes back to the days when it was a widow&#8217;s pension.  I think the latest moves under Welfare to Work (WtW) are just the inevitable consequence of women&#8217;s increased engagement in the workforce, such that we are more inclined to think of jobless mothers as unemployed now, rather than just mothers (as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive). </p>
<p>The other &#8216;good&#8217; side-effect of WtW is that single parents with older children now have less financial disincentive to repartner formally. The moral hazard associated with Parenting Payment Single has more to do with disincentive to repartner (or even to reconcile) than with incentive to split up in the first place.  For many low-income single parents it just doesn&#8217;t pay to repartner (or even to reconcile) with a low-income man because the income support deal that you get is so much less generous.  So it&#8217;s not really their fault, it&#8217;s the fault of the system.</p>
<p>Lest NPOV think I&#8217;m being mean to single parents again, I hasten to point out that I&#8217;m not arguing against single parent payments because they contain a degree of moral hazard.  Moral hazard is a feature of any income support system, whether funded by insurance or public revenue.  It&#8217;s better, I think, to be honest about it and try to design the system in such a way as to minimise its effects than to just close your eyes to it and hope it will go away.</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260995</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260995</guid>
		<description>Anthony, I didn't notice it before, but I have to agree, "givernment" is brilliant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony, I didn&#8217;t notice it before, but I have to agree, &#8220;givernment&#8221; is brilliant.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260993</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260993</guid>
		<description>Spog, you're right that the introduction of aprenting payment in the mid-1990s blurred the existing categorical structure of welfare payments somewhat. But it doesn't undermine my point that the government is more willing to subsidise households doing it tough when there are children involved than when the households are childless. And yes, I definitely wasn't factoring in the more recent welfare-to-work reforms of the Howard government: these, I think, do represent a fundamental shift in the categorical payment system as it had evolced of the past century: that is, the government is now less willing to compensate a person with kids who is suffering the adverse financial consequences of a break up. I'm not sure whether BG would see this as a good development or not.

By the way, my mis-spelling 'government' in my last post as 'givernment' in a thread on welfare apyments seems a slip of an exquisitely freudian type.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spog, you&#8217;re right that the introduction of aprenting payment in the mid-1990s blurred the existing categorical structure of welfare payments somewhat. But it doesn&#8217;t undermine my point that the government is more willing to subsidise households doing it tough when there are children involved than when the households are childless. And yes, I definitely wasn&#8217;t factoring in the more recent welfare-to-work reforms of the Howard government: these, I think, do represent a fundamental shift in the categorical payment system as it had evolced of the past century: that is, the government is now less willing to compensate a person with kids who is suffering the adverse financial consequences of a break up. I&#8217;m not sure whether BG would see this as a good development or not.</p>
<p>By the way, my mis-spelling &#8216;government&#8217; in my last post as &#8216;givernment&#8217; in a thread on welfare apyments seems a slip of an exquisitely freudian type.</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260739</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260739</guid>
		<description>I see what you mean now, Anthony, although I still don't think you're quite right.  Before the split (and assuming the kids are young), a principal carer of a child in the couple is eligible for parenting payment, based on income and assets of the couple.  After the split, the principal carer is eligible for parenting payment, based on their own income and assets.  That's exactly the same as "unemployment benefit" in that sense, and it's been that way since the late 1990s.

Parenting payment is paid to a principal carer based on the fact they have young children.  Like "unemployment benefit", if you're a member of a couple both incomes are counted; if you aren't, only your own is used.

If the kids are older (eg, 8+ years), it's "unemployment benefit" (Newstart Allowance) regardless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you mean now, Anthony, although I still don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re quite right.  Before the split (and assuming the kids are young), a principal carer of a child in the couple is eligible for parenting payment, based on income and assets of the couple.  After the split, the principal carer is eligible for parenting payment, based on their own income and assets.  That&#8217;s exactly the same as &#8220;unemployment benefit&#8221; in that sense, and it&#8217;s been that way since the late 1990s.</p>
<p>Parenting payment is paid to a principal carer based on the fact they have young children.  Like &#8220;unemployment benefit&#8221;, if you&#8217;re a member of a couple both incomes are counted; if you aren&#8217;t, only your own is used.</p>
<p>If the kids are older (eg, 8+ years), it&#8217;s &#8220;unemployment benefit&#8221; (Newstart Allowance) regardless.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260704</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260704</guid>
		<description>Spog, I gather you're referring to the effect of means testing, whereas I was referring to the question of eligibility for categories of income support. So it's true, if you're an unemployed person looking for work who happens to be partnered with an average income earner, you won't be entitled to unemployment benefit, but if you separate from that partner you will be entitled to a fortnightly payment. This is the effect of the means test. The point is that before the split you were eligible for the payment, but the means test precluded any actual fortnightly payment, whereas after the split you're still eligible for exactly the same payment, but now you'll get it because of your reduced household income. So people without kids who split up can get income support i nthe same way they could have got income support while partnered except for the means test.

In contrast, if you're part of a couple with kids and you split up and become the primary carer for the kids, then the government's created a special income support category just for you.

My comment was a response to BG's comment that the government shouldn't compensate people for the adverse financial efffects of their decisions to split up. I pointed out the givernment, through sole parents payment, was trying to compensate kids for the adverse financial consequences of their parents' decision to split up.

But, you're right, how people decide to construct households will effect their entitlement to any given category of income support. It's another moral hazard problem: does the means test (never mind sole parent payments) encourage couples to split up and form individual households?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spog, I gather you&#8217;re referring to the effect of means testing, whereas I was referring to the question of eligibility for categories of income support. So it&#8217;s true, if you&#8217;re an unemployed person looking for work who happens to be partnered with an average income earner, you won&#8217;t be entitled to unemployment benefit, but if you separate from that partner you will be entitled to a fortnightly payment. This is the effect of the means test. The point is that before the split you were eligible for the payment, but the means test precluded any actual fortnightly payment, whereas after the split you&#8217;re still eligible for exactly the same payment, but now you&#8217;ll get it because of your reduced household income. So people without kids who split up can get income support i nthe same way they could have got income support while partnered except for the means test.</p>
<p>In contrast, if you&#8217;re part of a couple with kids and you split up and become the primary carer for the kids, then the government&#8217;s created a special income support category just for you.</p>
<p>My comment was a response to BG&#8217;s comment that the government shouldn&#8217;t compensate people for the adverse financial efffects of their decisions to split up. I pointed out the givernment, through sole parents payment, was trying to compensate kids for the adverse financial consequences of their parents&#8217; decision to split up.</p>
<p>But, you&#8217;re right, how people decide to construct households will effect their entitlement to any given category of income support. It&#8217;s another moral hazard problem: does the means test (never mind sole parent payments) encourage couples to split up and form individual households?</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260675</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260675</guid>
		<description>Anthony@14

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the Gov't will compensate people with kids for splitting up, but not those without.

People without kids who split up can get income support in the same way as people with kids.  If you equivalise it, at maximum rates it's probably roughly comparable in amount as well.  Or did you mean something else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony@14</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand what you mean by the Gov&#8217;t will compensate people with kids for splitting up, but not those without.</p>
<p>People without kids who split up can get income support in the same way as people with kids.  If you equivalise it, at maximum rates it&#8217;s probably roughly comparable in amount as well.  Or did you mean something else?</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260625</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260625</guid>
		<description>I'm sure there's some truth in that, Anthony though the extent of unfairness you feel may also have some relationship to how you feel you are travelling yourself.  I suspect that the reason many low-income workers feel somewhat resentful towards income support recipients is that they struggle themselves and they see another group whose standard of living is not dissimilar to their own who don't have to work hard, possibly at jobs they don't like. OTOH, I suspect most people who are doing OK themselves don't really spend too much time feeling aggrieved about how much their boss earns or even their CEO.

But maybe people's conception of fair reward has more to do with effort, rather than the type of job you or someone else does.  I'm sure that many people in jobs with regulated wages have the experience of looking at the person in the desk next to them who doesn't put in anywhere near the effort that they do but still gets paid the same. It's pretty damn hard to be fair to all of the people, all of the time - all you can ever hope to achieve is something that most people think is reasonably fair most of the time, I reckon.

But I think a really useful observation of Peter Whiteford's was that income inequality in Australia is probably just as much, if not more, a function of household joblessness as it is of CEO salaries.  While the mnumber of jobless couple families has been falling here for quite some time, the number of jobless single parent families has only really begun to fall more recently.  But he's also right to observe that household joblessness here is in part evidence of the adequacy of our income support payments, rather than the reverse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s some truth in that, Anthony though the extent of unfairness you feel may also have some relationship to how you feel you are travelling yourself.  I suspect that the reason many low-income workers feel somewhat resentful towards income support recipients is that they struggle themselves and they see another group whose standard of living is not dissimilar to their own who don&#8217;t have to work hard, possibly at jobs they don&#8217;t like. OTOH, I suspect most people who are doing OK themselves don&#8217;t really spend too much time feeling aggrieved about how much their boss earns or even their CEO.</p>
<p>But maybe people&#8217;s conception of fair reward has more to do with effort, rather than the type of job you or someone else does.  I&#8217;m sure that many people in jobs with regulated wages have the experience of looking at the person in the desk next to them who doesn&#8217;t put in anywhere near the effort that they do but still gets paid the same. It&#8217;s pretty damn hard to be fair to all of the people, all of the time - all you can ever hope to achieve is something that most people think is reasonably fair most of the time, I reckon.</p>
<p>But I think a really useful observation of Peter Whiteford&#8217;s was that income inequality in Australia is probably just as much, if not more, a function of household joblessness as it is of CEO salaries.  While the mnumber of jobless couple families has been falling here for quite some time, the number of jobless single parent families has only really begun to fall more recently.  But he&#8217;s also right to observe that household joblessness here is in part evidence of the adequacy of our income support payments, rather than the reverse.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260437</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260437</guid>
		<description>"even though all policy wonks concur that it is disposable income inequality that counts, maybe a lot of the population think it is market income inequality that is most important"

I suspect there's an element of truth in this. 'Policy wonks' presume that as long as people are having their household incomes somewhat equalised, it doesn’t matter where the money comes from. Yet is it really true that people value all money flowing into the household in the same way and that they make no distinction between earned income, a father’s tax credit and a mother’s family payment? The fairness of earned income in particular is likely to be evaluated differently because it is a reward for individual effort. Adequacy is one thing, but arguably there exist important social norms of wage justice that link reward with effort, skill, training, and responsibility in a job. Unsurprisingly fairness of pay is often assessed by looking at the rewards given to people doing similar types of work. Accordingly, changes in wage relativities based on either the vagaries of the market or a worker’s bargaining power will typically be considered 'unfair', regardless of what the tax-transfer system does to equalise outcomes in terms of household disposable income</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;even though all policy wonks concur that it is disposable income inequality that counts, maybe a lot of the population think it is market income inequality that is most important&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect there&#8217;s an element of truth in this. &#8216;Policy wonks&#8217; presume that as long as people are having their household incomes somewhat equalised, it doesn’t matter where the money comes from. Yet is it really true that people value all money flowing into the household in the same way and that they make no distinction between earned income, a father’s tax credit and a mother’s family payment? The fairness of earned income in particular is likely to be evaluated differently because it is a reward for individual effort. Adequacy is one thing, but arguably there exist important social norms of wage justice that link reward with effort, skill, training, and responsibility in a job. Unsurprisingly fairness of pay is often assessed by looking at the rewards given to people doing similar types of work. Accordingly, changes in wage relativities based on either the vagaries of the market or a worker’s bargaining power will typically be considered &#8216;unfair&#8217;, regardless of what the tax-transfer system does to equalise outcomes in terms of household disposable income</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Whiteford</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260393</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Whiteford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260393</guid>
		<description>Please note that the implication of my comment 24 is that this is the redistribution within the existing social security budget which is comparable to the increase in taxes and transfers calculated as necessary to get the Gini coefficient down from 0.30 to 0.28.  Whether it would actually do this, I can't say from the data available</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please note that the implication of my comment 24 is that this is the redistribution within the existing social security budget which is comparable to the increase in taxes and transfers calculated as necessary to get the Gini coefficient down from 0.30 to 0.28.  Whether it would actually do this, I can&#8217;t say from the data available</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260385</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/10/income-inequality-in-the-noughties-how-far-would-you-go-to-fix-it/#comment-260385</guid>
		<description>And the problem with targeting more tightly to people at the bottom end is that your EMTRs go up pretty horrendously, with possible adverse consequences for at least some people's work incentives.  No such thing as a free lunch, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the problem with targeting more tightly to people at the bottom end is that your EMTRs go up pretty horrendously, with possible adverse consequences for at least some people&#8217;s work incentives.  No such thing as a free lunch, I guess.</p>
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