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	<title>Comments on: Rules or principles? The other man&#8217;s regulation is always greener</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265514</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265514</guid>
		<description>On human rights (as for constitutionality) it has been suggested that high courts give &quot;advice&quot; on bills before they are voted on in parliaments.

Also worth looking at is the draft EU charter (which some countries mutilated/rejected as limiting the rights of politicians to do the dirty).  I think it&#039;s the best I&#039;ve seen since such declarations were written, including rights to good administration and environmental protection.  It beats the draft charter planned by the dems (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newmatilda.com/admin/imageLibrary/images/New%20Matilda%20Human%20Rights%20Bill%20FINAL%209%20August%202006gKBn1RPdd8Fb.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New Matilda&lt;/a&gt; and humanrights.com.au (supported by Mal Fraser).

Official PDF version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

My HTML rendering and some notes &lt;a href=&quot;http://balneus.wordpress.com/2007/06/25/a-basis-for-an-australian-bill-of-rights/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On human rights (as for constitutionality) it has been suggested that high courts give &#8220;advice&#8221; on bills before they are voted on in parliaments.</p>
<p>Also worth looking at is the draft EU charter (which some countries mutilated/rejected as limiting the rights of politicians to do the dirty).  I think it&#8217;s the best I&#8217;ve seen since such declarations were written, including rights to good administration and environmental protection.  It beats the draft charter planned by the dems (see <a href="http://www.newmatilda.com/admin/imageLibrary/images/New%20Matilda%20Human%20Rights%20Bill%20FINAL%209%20August%202006gKBn1RPdd8Fb.pdf">New Matilda</a> and humanrights.com.au (supported by Mal Fraser).</p>
<p>Official PDF version <a href="http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf">here</a>.</p>
<p>My HTML rendering and some notes <a href="http://balneus.wordpress.com/2007/06/25/a-basis-for-an-australian-bill-of-rights/">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Malam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265488</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Malam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265488</guid>
		<description>Right. And perhaps the checks and balances we apply to principles-based regulators is similiar - it holds the regulators accountable within the reading of the applicable principle. With regulators knowing this in advance, their incentives are pretty clear, at least when their decisions are being tested. The difficulty providing them incentives happens when nothing is going wrong (economic good times), which is when their performance is hard to measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. And perhaps the checks and balances we apply to principles-based regulators is similiar &#8211; it holds the regulators accountable within the reading of the applicable principle. With regulators knowing this in advance, their incentives are pretty clear, at least when their decisions are being tested. The difficulty providing them incentives happens when nothing is going wrong (economic good times), which is when their performance is hard to measure.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265356</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265356</guid>
		<description>The other thing this put me in mind of is the distinction between legal procedure a la the common law countries (rule based) and its counterpart in civil law countries (more principle based) - with civil law procedure being generally superior to common law procedure - [NB. this is not doctrine, but procedure].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other thing this put me in mind of is the distinction between legal procedure a la the common law countries (rule based) and its counterpart in civil law countries (more principle based) &#8211; with civil law procedure being generally superior to common law procedure &#8211; [NB. this is not doctrine, but procedure].</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265342</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265342</guid>
		<description>It sounds essentially the same as the &#039;&lt;em&gt;per se&lt;/em&gt;&#039; vs &#039;case by case&#039; distinction in competition law. The latter kinds of laws are supposed to focus on outcomes, so that fits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds essentially the same as the &#8216;<em>per se</em>&#8216; vs &#8216;case by case&#8217; distinction in competition law. The latter kinds of laws are supposed to focus on outcomes, so that fits.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Malam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265182</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Malam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265182</guid>
		<description>oops, sorry everyone, machine told me the first one had not worked. Amazing how it  motivates you to get straight to the point..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops, sorry everyone, machine told me the first one had not worked. Amazing how it  motivates you to get straight to the point..</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Malam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265147</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Malam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265147</guid>
		<description>I suppose I am more confident about lawyers doing their jobs, which includes isolating what can be formalised into codes of practice from what can not be. You have alot more experience than me, so I am probably underestimating the risk of things becoming dysfunctional.

But I still think the adaptive responses sought under principle-based regulation cannot be obtained without some uncertainty, it just goes with the territory. And getting the right amount comes down to incentivising the regulators.

There may be jurisdictions where less uncertainty is applied, however the question is whether this represents better regulation or just different objectives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I am more confident about lawyers doing their jobs, which includes isolating what can be formalised into codes of practice from what can not be. You have alot more experience than me, so I am probably underestimating the risk of things becoming dysfunctional.</p>
<p>But I still think the adaptive responses sought under principle-based regulation cannot be obtained without some uncertainty, it just goes with the territory. And getting the right amount comes down to incentivising the regulators.</p>
<p>There may be jurisdictions where less uncertainty is applied, however the question is whether this represents better regulation or just different objectives.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Malam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265145</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Malam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-265145</guid>
		<description>Nicholas I guess that is the essence of what I am saying; in order to elicit the most adaptive adherence to the principles there is necessarily some uncertainty. The two cannot be apart. I appreciate lawyers might not like that, but I see this as part of their job. It is useful to have people working on formalising what can appear arbitrary, and identifying what can not be formalised. I suppose I am less worried about this becoming dysfunctional, although you have alot more experieince than me so you are probably right about the risks.

I still think the knub of the problem is to incentivise regulators in a principles-based world so that this style of regulation can reach its full potential.

The issue of eliciting the optimal amount of uncertainty from regulators, given the objectives we have, is probably a seperate matter to whether production would shift to another jurisdiction. If the objectives are the same, but achieved without uncertainty, then we ditch principles-based regulation in that instance. However if the objectives are different, then we judge whether our objectives that much better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas I guess that is the essence of what I am saying; in order to elicit the most adaptive adherence to the principles there is necessarily some uncertainty. The two cannot be apart. I appreciate lawyers might not like that, but I see this as part of their job. It is useful to have people working on formalising what can appear arbitrary, and identifying what can not be formalised. I suppose I am less worried about this becoming dysfunctional, although you have alot more experieince than me so you are probably right about the risks.</p>
<p>I still think the knub of the problem is to incentivise regulators in a principles-based world so that this style of regulation can reach its full potential.</p>
<p>The issue of eliciting the optimal amount of uncertainty from regulators, given the objectives we have, is probably a seperate matter to whether production would shift to another jurisdiction. If the objectives are the same, but achieved without uncertainty, then we ditch principles-based regulation in that instance. However if the objectives are different, then we judge whether our objectives that much better.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264984</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264984</guid>
		<description>Craig,

In principle you&#039;re right.  In practice it&#039;s not so clear. Boards are just uncertain of what they should be doing.  Is an aluminium company liable for all that CO2 they emit?  They go on emitting it, but might put the next smelter somewhere where directors&#039; duties are clearer. 

On top of this we have a very rules based legal culture, so you&#039;ve got lawyers running round advising the boards not to do this and that, and covering their own arses and trying to convert the principles into codes of practice and rules that will leave their boards safe - all at the risk of considerable dysfuctionality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>In principle you&#8217;re right.  In practice it&#8217;s not so clear. Boards are just uncertain of what they should be doing.  Is an aluminium company liable for all that CO2 they emit?  They go on emitting it, but might put the next smelter somewhere where directors&#8217; duties are clearer. </p>
<p>On top of this we have a very rules based legal culture, so you&#8217;ve got lawyers running round advising the boards not to do this and that, and covering their own arses and trying to convert the principles into codes of practice and rules that will leave their boards safe &#8211; all at the risk of considerable dysfuctionality.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Malam</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264841</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Malam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264841</guid>
		<description>I think you might find that most proponents of principles-based regulation would say that some of the additional time spent by Boards of Directors you mention is exactly what is intended. Instead of simply &#039;checking off&#039; their adherence to certain standards, they are asked to think about what the standards are trying to acheive. Although this might seem costly in a static sense, it could in the end be less costly when outcomes are improved. It is, of course, very hard to measure such gains since the counterfactual is next to impossible to guess.

And this is at the heart of correctly incentivising the regulator, whose performance is extremely hard to measure. As Jennifer suggests, the regulator may not provide enough guideance about about the principles it espouses. But if the regulator can be incentivised to do so, then it should rationally choose &#039;enough&#039; guideance, leaving the Boards and compliance committees to figure out the rest, as intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you might find that most proponents of principles-based regulation would say that some of the additional time spent by Boards of Directors you mention is exactly what is intended. Instead of simply &#8216;checking off&#8217; their adherence to certain standards, they are asked to think about what the standards are trying to acheive. Although this might seem costly in a static sense, it could in the end be less costly when outcomes are improved. It is, of course, very hard to measure such gains since the counterfactual is next to impossible to guess.</p>
<p>And this is at the heart of correctly incentivising the regulator, whose performance is extremely hard to measure. As Jennifer suggests, the regulator may not provide enough guideance about about the principles it espouses. But if the regulator can be incentivised to do so, then it should rationally choose &#8216;enough&#8217; guideance, leaving the Boards and compliance committees to figure out the rest, as intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264669</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264669</guid>
		<description>In my experienced, principles based regulation does tend to end up in the rules being stronger. As you say, as the company try and work out what the regulator really wants (with the regulator refusing to elaborate on the principles they have espoused), the company is likely to err on the side of too much, rather than too little (capital, governance, disclosure, etc. etc).

That can be a good thing, but also makes it harder for a Board of Directors to work out how to balance shareholder vs compliance/ risk management. If a Board becomes too fearful of regulation, then the regulatory framework has added to compliance costs, albeit indirectly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experienced, principles based regulation does tend to end up in the rules being stronger. As you say, as the company try and work out what the regulator really wants (with the regulator refusing to elaborate on the principles they have espoused), the company is likely to err on the side of too much, rather than too little (capital, governance, disclosure, etc. etc).</p>
<p>That can be a good thing, but also makes it harder for a Board of Directors to work out how to balance shareholder vs compliance/ risk management. If a Board becomes too fearful of regulation, then the regulatory framework has added to compliance costs, albeit indirectly.</p>
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		<title>By: Marks</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264646</link>
		<dc:creator>Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264646</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think one needs to worry whether or not the US would use nukes if Iran sent a few into Isreal - the Israelis would certainly send a few back, (not to mention a couple off course to Mecca/Medina as being in the top five targets - then the fat would be in the fire).  After that, whatever the US did would be academic.

I suspect that Hillary is trying to sound Presidential - you know &quot;A Commander-in-Chief never discounts any strategic option&quot;.  

Dum dum ta dum dum ta dum ta dum ta da da!   (Hail to the Chief that is)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think one needs to worry whether or not the US would use nukes if Iran sent a few into Isreal &#8211; the Israelis would certainly send a few back, (not to mention a couple off course to Mecca/Medina as being in the top five targets &#8211; then the fat would be in the fire).  After that, whatever the US did would be academic.</p>
<p>I suspect that Hillary is trying to sound Presidential &#8211; you know &#8220;A Commander-in-Chief never discounts any strategic option&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Dum dum ta dum dum ta dum ta dum ta da da!   (Hail to the Chief that is)</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264642</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/04/22/rules-or-principles-the-other-mans-regulation-is-always-greener/#comment-264642</guid>
		<description>Northern Rock v Bear Stearns! As you say: &lt;blockquote&gt;its difficult to be confident of whats best.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is the point that hedge funds seem to have largely side-stepped the mess banks have got into because they weren&#039;t so hung up about complying with pretty deterministic capital adequacy rules.

Arguably that highlights the real regulatory dilemma in financial services, which is how to increase the scope of market regulation (ie the scope for companies to collapse without being bailed out) whilst managing the regulator&#039;s inability to see &#039;innocent&#039; investors cop any sort of loss. Whether there are strict rules or principles, I think the consequences are probably the most important part.

I tend to think that the best outcome is broadly what happened at Northern Rock, with the shareholders losing everything and the government taking it over - ordinarily, it should be able to sell it a profit as well. I am a little less comfortable with Bear Stearns, where the situation seems to have been more like the government helping a private firm make a windfall (although of course it may not prove to be that!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Northern Rock v Bear Stearns! As you say:<br />
<blockquote>its difficult to be confident of whats best.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is the point that hedge funds seem to have largely side-stepped the mess banks have got into because they weren&#8217;t so hung up about complying with pretty deterministic capital adequacy rules.</p>
<p>Arguably that highlights the real regulatory dilemma in financial services, which is how to increase the scope of market regulation (ie the scope for companies to collapse without being bailed out) whilst managing the regulator&#8217;s inability to see &#8216;innocent&#8217; investors cop any sort of loss. Whether there are strict rules or principles, I think the consequences are probably the most important part.</p>
<p>I tend to think that the best outcome is broadly what happened at Northern Rock, with the shareholders losing everything and the government taking it over &#8211; ordinarily, it should be able to sell it a profit as well. I am a little less comfortable with Bear Stearns, where the situation seems to have been more like the government helping a private firm make a windfall (although of course it may not prove to be that!).</p>
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