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	<title>Comments on: Government and the division of labour &#8211; any ideas?</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-292438</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-292438</guid>
		<description>Looks as though you&#039;re on the verge of inventing a kind of Government Bank - maybe we could call it the Commonwealth Bank of Australia?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks as though you&#8217;re on the verge of inventing a kind of Government Bank &#8211; maybe we could call it the Commonwealth Bank of Australia?</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-291308</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-291308</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The market system merely provides the setting in which you get what you deserve&lt;/blockquote&gt;

ah sweet mystery of life - at last I&#039;ve found you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The market system merely provides the setting in which you get what you deserve</p></blockquote>
<p>ah sweet mystery of life &#8211; at last I&#8217;ve found you.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290546</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290546</guid>
		<description>Oh dear David, I can see you&#039;re not a true price devotee. The price you seek is of course eternal vigilance and true values, which is why we should remove the temptation of the printing press forever from those who believe in theories of surplus value among other blunt instruments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear David, I can see you&#8217;re not a true price devotee. The price you seek is of course eternal vigilance and true values, which is why we should remove the temptation of the printing press forever from those who believe in theories of surplus value among other blunt instruments.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290507</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290507</guid>
		<description>observa wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Im sure Joe Stalin would have agreed wholeheartedly with the sentiment and the ultimate end game.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What with all the baby selling, organ harvesting and general placing of a pricetag on everything, I&#039;ve been inspired by a new idea:

The government should set up &quot;PriceHeadWatch&quot;.

Basically, it&#039;s a central repository for the appropriate price for a citizens head.  Base it on some formula the tax office dreams up (say income times three years, with welfare payments being negative).

That way, you could scan &quot;PriceHeadWatch&quot;, purchase them on the open market (kind of like Ebay for contract killing), then by initiating an auction over seven days, either pay the market their price, or receive money from the government for the killing of a welfare mother, with the bonus of harvesting the children.

So, it would cost a million to buy (say) Morris Iemma so you could legally wander into his office, contract in hand and mercifully (for the rest of us) terminate his premiership.

But for Sally Slutmother, who&#039;s an unmarried mother of three children, you would receive $90,000 for sending her to an early reward, with the children ending up in your custody to sell on or harvest their kidneys for resale or whatever.

I think it&#039;s a winner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>observa wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Im sure Joe Stalin would have agreed wholeheartedly with the sentiment and the ultimate end game.</p></blockquote>
<p>What with all the baby selling, organ harvesting and general placing of a pricetag on everything, I&#8217;ve been inspired by a new idea:</p>
<p>The government should set up &#8220;PriceHeadWatch&#8221;.</p>
<p>Basically, it&#8217;s a central repository for the appropriate price for a citizens head.  Base it on some formula the tax office dreams up (say income times three years, with welfare payments being negative).</p>
<p>That way, you could scan &#8220;PriceHeadWatch&#8221;, purchase them on the open market (kind of like Ebay for contract killing), then by initiating an auction over seven days, either pay the market their price, or receive money from the government for the killing of a welfare mother, with the bonus of harvesting the children.</p>
<p>So, it would cost a million to buy (say) Morris Iemma so you could legally wander into his office, contract in hand and mercifully (for the rest of us) terminate his premiership.</p>
<p>But for Sally Slutmother, who&#8217;s an unmarried mother of three children, you would receive $90,000 for sending her to an early reward, with the children ending up in your custody to sell on or harvest their kidneys for resale or whatever.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a winner.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290457</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290457</guid>
		<description>&quot;The net effect would be to improve the risk profile of biotch investments.&quot;

Maybe, but then you&#039;ve got to factor in the rising cost of crack cocaine, fishnets, hourly hotel rates...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The net effect would be to improve the risk profile of biotch investments.&#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe, but then you&#8217;ve got to factor in the rising cost of crack cocaine, fishnets, hourly hotel rates&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Green</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290412</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290412</guid>
		<description>If we scrapped patents in favour of a prize system, I wonder what different ways the prizes would be administered.

I wonder because I don&#039;t think that saying &quot;We will award a prize for X breakthrough in Y technology&quot; would be entirely wise, since that presupposes the direction that technology should take. Our record of picking winners is a bit poor in the arena of innovation.

Were we offering prizes in the mid 20th century, we may have had hundreds for various details of space travel, but none for microprocessing, less for software and none for networking, but the latter categories have been more fruitful.

So how on earth do you offer a prize when the fruitful innovation often only become apparent (to individuals) ex post facto?

Maybe you could have a online registry of ideas run by the government (filled with income contingent loan funded research why not?) free for exploitation by anyone, but should an innovation become exploited, the government could reward it after the fact.

This is replete with problems of course. There will still be litigation over whom &quot;originally&quot; came up with an idea, there is still a huge amount of uncertainty on the part of the innovators, since they also can&#039;t pick winners (although they may have a better idea than others), but it might make the government&#039;s choice of what innovation to reward less distortionary, whilst also removing the impediments patents place of utilisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we scrapped patents in favour of a prize system, I wonder what different ways the prizes would be administered.</p>
<p>I wonder because I don&#8217;t think that saying &#8220;We will award a prize for X breakthrough in Y technology&#8221; would be entirely wise, since that presupposes the direction that technology should take. Our record of picking winners is a bit poor in the arena of innovation.</p>
<p>Were we offering prizes in the mid 20th century, we may have had hundreds for various details of space travel, but none for microprocessing, less for software and none for networking, but the latter categories have been more fruitful.</p>
<p>So how on earth do you offer a prize when the fruitful innovation often only become apparent (to individuals) ex post facto?</p>
<p>Maybe you could have a online registry of ideas run by the government (filled with income contingent loan funded research why not?) free for exploitation by anyone, but should an innovation become exploited, the government could reward it after the fact.</p>
<p>This is replete with problems of course. There will still be litigation over whom &#8220;originally&#8221; came up with an idea, there is still a huge amount of uncertainty on the part of the innovators, since they also can&#8217;t pick winners (although they may have a better idea than others), but it might make the government&#8217;s choice of what innovation to reward less distortionary, whilst also removing the impediments patents place of utilisation.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290350</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290350</guid>
		<description>Well the rot that has occurred may already have serious consequences Nicholas. While central bankers plied their trade, our politicians were busy &#039;working&#039; that tax asset as you like to call it
http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm
To take your example of Japanese motorcycles driving out British ones, I concur but note it was a reasonably level playing field. Two democracies with workers and capital competing internationally and the hard working, innovative Japanese won out, not just over motorcycles. Now take China, while those central bankers and politicians &#039;worked&#039; our assets. A Maoist dictatorship that could command its workers, their savings and their exchange rate. Sure, we enjoyed the fruits of their masters&#039; slave driving for some years now under a false umbrella at home, whilst our real productive capacity was being hollowed out and the debt mounted. Now they&#039;re knocking on the door like the debt collector always does when the payments are faltering. All those trillions now in their forced SWFs, albeit with the complicity of the failed ethos you continue to espouse here. That ideology is soon to be as bankrupt as &#039;we&#039; are financially now (albeit Australia is a more lucky bastard in that respect) Now that&#039;s a wee bit more nuanced than the Uncle Joe extreme, but it&#039;s very relevant nevertheless. We won&#039;t be living in your fool&#039;s paradise for much longer I&#039;ll warrant, judging by the storm clouds on the horizon.

As the man said and it applies equally to us-

Americans misunderstood the nature of capitalism itself. It is not an economic system that makes people automatically richer. It is a moral system a system that rewards virtue and punishes error. You dont get richer because of Free Enterprise. Indeed, as the economic history of the last quarter-century shows, you can get poorer. The market system merely provides the setting in which you get what you deserve. You could get rich- if you were to do the right thing: work hard, save your money, innovate, take chances, forgo consumption. But do the wrong thing and you will pay for it. 

When you spend more than you can afford, you get poorer. Thats the rule. So it should come as no surprise that Americans are getting poorerthough they are just beginning to realize it. 

That&#039;s the underlying problem I have with so called &#039;working&#039; your asset Nicholas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the rot that has occurred may already have serious consequences Nicholas. While central bankers plied their trade, our politicians were busy &#8216;working&#8217; that tax asset as you like to call it<br />
<a href="http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm">http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm</a><br />
To take your example of Japanese motorcycles driving out British ones, I concur but note it was a reasonably level playing field. Two democracies with workers and capital competing internationally and the hard working, innovative Japanese won out, not just over motorcycles. Now take China, while those central bankers and politicians &#8216;worked&#8217; our assets. A Maoist dictatorship that could command its workers, their savings and their exchange rate. Sure, we enjoyed the fruits of their masters&#8217; slave driving for some years now under a false umbrella at home, whilst our real productive capacity was being hollowed out and the debt mounted. Now they&#8217;re knocking on the door like the debt collector always does when the payments are faltering. All those trillions now in their forced SWFs, albeit with the complicity of the failed ethos you continue to espouse here. That ideology is soon to be as bankrupt as &#8216;we&#8217; are financially now (albeit Australia is a more lucky bastard in that respect) Now that&#8217;s a wee bit more nuanced than the Uncle Joe extreme, but it&#8217;s very relevant nevertheless. We won&#8217;t be living in your fool&#8217;s paradise for much longer I&#8217;ll warrant, judging by the storm clouds on the horizon.</p>
<p>As the man said and it applies equally to us-</p>
<p>Americans misunderstood the nature of capitalism itself. It is not an economic system that makes people automatically richer. It is a moral system a system that rewards virtue and punishes error. You dont get richer because of Free Enterprise. Indeed, as the economic history of the last quarter-century shows, you can get poorer. The market system merely provides the setting in which you get what you deserve. You could get rich- if you were to do the right thing: work hard, save your money, innovate, take chances, forgo consumption. But do the wrong thing and you will pay for it. </p>
<p>When you spend more than you can afford, you get poorer. Thats the rule. So it should come as no surprise that Americans are getting poorerthough they are just beginning to realize it. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the underlying problem I have with so called &#8216;working&#8217; your asset Nicholas.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290340</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290340</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;ve got to concede Observa that HECS really is the thin end of the wedge.  It is how the Russian Revolution started isn&#039;t it?  Pretty soon it led to Joe Stalin.  I&#039;m with you - stop the rot before it&#039;s too late.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;ve got to concede Observa that HECS really is the thin end of the wedge.  It is how the Russian Revolution started isn&#8217;t it?  Pretty soon it led to Joe Stalin.  I&#8217;m with you &#8211; stop the rot before it&#8217;s too late.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290339</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290339</guid>
		<description>In that sense it might be said Backroom Girl is bucking fairly early on in Uncle Joe&#039;s end game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In that sense it might be said Backroom Girl is bucking fairly early on in Uncle Joe&#8217;s end game.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290338</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290338</guid>
		<description>&quot;Observa, the lower cost supplier - the more competent supplier wins the game.&quot;
I&#039;m sure Joe Stalin would have agreed wholeheartedly with the sentiment and the ultimate end game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Observa, the lower cost supplier &#8211; the more competent supplier wins the game.&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;m sure Joe Stalin would have agreed wholeheartedly with the sentiment and the ultimate end game.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290337</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290337</guid>
		<description>Observa, the lower cost supplier - the more competent supplier wins the game.  That involves contraction of the loser (with HECS crowding out the tiny student loan market for instance) and expansion of the winner. 

That&#039;s gains from trade old chum. I think you&#039;re having fantasies about how trade is &#039;win-win&#039;. It&#039;s win-win between countries - mostly. Not between providers. 

Japanese motorbikes wiped out most of the British motorcycle industry.  Britain a winner, but Triumph wasn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Observa, the lower cost supplier &#8211; the more competent supplier wins the game.  That involves contraction of the loser (with HECS crowding out the tiny student loan market for instance) and expansion of the winner. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s gains from trade old chum. I think you&#8217;re having fantasies about how trade is &#8216;win-win&#8217;. It&#8217;s win-win between countries &#8211; mostly. Not between providers. </p>
<p>Japanese motorbikes wiped out most of the British motorcycle industry.  Britain a winner, but Triumph wasn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290334</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290334</guid>
		<description>Probably more correctly- Apparently its not win win for her anecdotally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably more correctly- Apparently its not win win for her anecdotally.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290332</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290332</guid>
		<description>I also note that Backroom Girl is complaining about the monopoly asset provider and the price being charged for same. Apparently it&#039;s not win win for her either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also note that Backroom Girl is complaining about the monopoly asset provider and the price being charged for same. Apparently it&#8217;s not win win for her either.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290330</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290330</guid>
		<description>&quot;Government and the private sector are good at different things, and there are gains from trade. Thus government has certain assets at its disposal. One of those assets is the taxing power.  That asset should be worked wherever it gives rise to value.&quot;

You fail to see the fundamental flaw that the asset of one that should be &#039;worked&#039; as you call it is the liability of &#039;work&#039; for the other so called gainer from trade. This is clearly not a win win trade situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Government and the private sector are good at different things, and there are gains from trade. Thus government has certain assets at its disposal. One of those assets is the taxing power.  That asset should be worked wherever it gives rise to value.&#8221;</p>
<p>You fail to see the fundamental flaw that the asset of one that should be &#8216;worked&#8217; as you call it is the liability of &#8216;work&#8217; for the other so called gainer from trade. This is clearly not a win win trade situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290312</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290312</guid>
		<description>Congestion charges are another Good Idea for something government can do that the private sector can&#039;t (because many of the areas where congestion is greatest are public spaces - like city centres).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congestion charges are another Good Idea for something government can do that the private sector can&#8217;t (because many of the areas where congestion is greatest are public spaces &#8211; like city centres).</p>
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		<title>By: swio</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290264</link>
		<dc:creator>swio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290264</guid>
		<description>HECS on Biotech companies. They are very high risk, very high payoff and capital markets don&#039;t seem to work very well with that combination. I know there are venture capitalists out there, but if anyone has read through the tech boom you realise that they ask for ridiculously demanding terms, are often very shonky and the benefits rarely go back to the original generator of the idea. Its very hard for someone with a good idea to team up with capital that has integrity and the the necessary risk profile.

Obviously it would not be good to have the government just giving money to anyone with a Biochemistry degree. You would prevent that by making it a scheme that only gives money to enterprises that are first able to attract money from the private sector. So if a biotech startup is able to get $100k in funding from a private investor the government matches that with another $100k. This would turbocharge the existing market. It is open to fraud but simple accounting and auditing would make it pretty easy to detect someone putting money into Porche&#039;s instead of lab equipment. The requirement of attracting real capital rather than just government grants would ensure that someone has made an objective decision about the prospects of the technology and is watching that money is spent effictively.

The net effect would be to improve the risk profile of biotch investments. If an investor can put in half the money to get the same result then they can put their money into double the number of biotechs, effectively doubling their chances of a win. Then when one of them wins the lottery and signs a hundred million dollar deal with big pharma the government takes a big cut and ploughs the money back into further biotech startups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HECS on Biotech companies. They are very high risk, very high payoff and capital markets don&#8217;t seem to work very well with that combination. I know there are venture capitalists out there, but if anyone has read through the tech boom you realise that they ask for ridiculously demanding terms, are often very shonky and the benefits rarely go back to the original generator of the idea. Its very hard for someone with a good idea to team up with capital that has integrity and the the necessary risk profile.</p>
<p>Obviously it would not be good to have the government just giving money to anyone with a Biochemistry degree. You would prevent that by making it a scheme that only gives money to enterprises that are first able to attract money from the private sector. So if a biotech startup is able to get $100k in funding from a private investor the government matches that with another $100k. This would turbocharge the existing market. It is open to fraud but simple accounting and auditing would make it pretty easy to detect someone putting money into Porche&#8217;s instead of lab equipment. The requirement of attracting real capital rather than just government grants would ensure that someone has made an objective decision about the prospects of the technology and is watching that money is spent effictively.</p>
<p>The net effect would be to improve the risk profile of biotch investments. If an investor can put in half the money to get the same result then they can put their money into double the number of biotechs, effectively doubling their chances of a win. Then when one of them wins the lottery and signs a hundred million dollar deal with big pharma the government takes a big cut and ploughs the money back into further biotech startups.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Heydon</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290221</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Heydon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290221</guid>
		<description>The comments in this post seem to be derailing what was a sensible post.

This is not a new suggestion, and not a HECS style scheme, however...

With respect to funding retirement, longevity risk is a very real risk, and one that the government is much better placed to deal with than the individual.
It is possible to purchase a lifetime annuity from a life insurance office to offload the longevity risk, but the market is very thin and capital requirements, moral hazard and prudent investment policies mean that they are very expensive.
The government already has the system in place to pay a fortnightly pension, so why not get into the business of selling pensions?  It would be possible, and perhaps desirable, to make the first call on all retirement lump sums the purchase from the government of a pension equivalent to the age pension.
This could also be dove tailed in with Jonathon&#039;s suggestion on a reverse mortgage on a home - the purchase price could come from a lump sum superannuation benefit or from the transfer of a share of the equity in the retirees home.
If such a scheme were introduced, the means test for the pension could become a once only test at age 65 - buy the pension if your assets are sufficient or get granted it for life based on assets at that point - rather than an ongoing affair, which would probably result in immense savings in bureaucracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comments in this post seem to be derailing what was a sensible post.</p>
<p>This is not a new suggestion, and not a HECS style scheme, however&#8230;</p>
<p>With respect to funding retirement, longevity risk is a very real risk, and one that the government is much better placed to deal with than the individual.<br />
It is possible to purchase a lifetime annuity from a life insurance office to offload the longevity risk, but the market is very thin and capital requirements, moral hazard and prudent investment policies mean that they are very expensive.<br />
The government already has the system in place to pay a fortnightly pension, so why not get into the business of selling pensions?  It would be possible, and perhaps desirable, to make the first call on all retirement lump sums the purchase from the government of a pension equivalent to the age pension.<br />
This could also be dove tailed in with Jonathon&#8217;s suggestion on a reverse mortgage on a home &#8211; the purchase price could come from a lump sum superannuation benefit or from the transfer of a share of the equity in the retirees home.<br />
If such a scheme were introduced, the means test for the pension could become a once only test at age 65 &#8211; buy the pension if your assets are sufficient or get granted it for life based on assets at that point &#8211; rather than an ongoing affair, which would probably result in immense savings in bureaucracy.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290210</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 07:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290210</guid>
		<description>&quot;Children are not chattels.&quot;

Quite. A consumable non-durable good cannot properly be so described.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Children are not chattels.&#8221;</p>
<p>Quite. A consumable non-durable good cannot properly be so described.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290209</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 07:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290209</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Legalise the sale of babies and children under 6 and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Get the hell off my internet!

Children are not chattels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Legalise the sale of babies and children under 6 and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.</p></blockquote>
<p>Get the hell off my internet!</p>
<p>Children are not chattels.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290198</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290198</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jonathon,

I&#039;ve certainly got no problem with HECS on prison stays, but I never did like the idea of gentlemen&#039;s prisons - so call me new age, but I&#039;m a bit of a trendy in being against two tier prisons. 

However, with the babies, you neglect to mention that you can more for them when they&#039;re disassembled (which is the wrong way to put it of course, since they were not strictly speaking assembled - but rather grew). The same goes for children of course. 

Thus points 4 and 5 could be integrated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jonathon,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve certainly got no problem with HECS on prison stays, but I never did like the idea of gentlemen&#8217;s prisons &#8211; so call me new age, but I&#8217;m a bit of a trendy in being against two tier prisons. </p>
<p>However, with the babies, you neglect to mention that you can more for them when they&#8217;re disassembled (which is the wrong way to put it of course, since they were not strictly speaking assembled &#8211; but rather grew). The same goes for children of course. </p>
<p>Thus points 4 and 5 could be integrated.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290197</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290197</guid>
		<description>Mr Swift, I am but a simple man with little to offer one so wise and shrewd as your towering self, but will you marry me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Swift, I am but a simple man with little to offer one so wise and shrewd as your towering self, but will you marry me?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Swift</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290193</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Swift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290193</guid>
		<description>Dr Gruen,

I&#039;m so glad you asked. I have a number of suggestions which I am sure will be of considerable benefit to the community.

1. Replace the age pension with a government operated reverse mortgage scheme.

2. Replace Medicare for the aged with a government operated reverse mortgage scheme.

3. Introduce pay-to-stay prisons. Create a two-tier prison system. Tier one will will be a basic service with only a minimum investment in inmate comfort and safety Tier two will be fee for service option with greater attention paid to inmate safety and comfort. Fees can be paid upfront or through a HECS-type arrangement.

4. Legalise the sale of organs and body parts and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.

5. Legalise the sale of babies and children under 6 and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Gruen,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so glad you asked. I have a number of suggestions which I am sure will be of considerable benefit to the community.</p>
<p>1. Replace the age pension with a government operated reverse mortgage scheme.</p>
<p>2. Replace Medicare for the aged with a government operated reverse mortgage scheme.</p>
<p>3. Introduce pay-to-stay prisons. Create a two-tier prison system. Tier one will will be a basic service with only a minimum investment in inmate comfort and safety Tier two will be fee for service option with greater attention paid to inmate safety and comfort. Fees can be paid upfront or through a HECS-type arrangement.</p>
<p>4. Legalise the sale of organs and body parts and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.</p>
<p>5. Legalise the sale of babies and children under 6 and include the value of these items in the assets tests for pensions and allowances.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290190</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290190</guid>
		<description>&quot;Wouldnt it be a lot more efficient to simply raise the top marginal tax rate to fund education?&quot;

Or you could just privatize the universities a bit more, which would let them out of the weird limbo they sit in now (especially given the &quot;large&quot; proportion of public money universities are dependent on that you refer to keeps on shrinking -- last time I checked some universities were claiming only 30% of their funding was directly from the government, although I am not sure what exactly this includes). In this case HECS makes much more sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Wouldnt it be a lot more efficient to simply raise the top marginal tax rate to fund education?&#8221;</p>
<p>Or you could just privatize the universities a bit more, which would let them out of the weird limbo they sit in now (especially given the &#8220;large&#8221; proportion of public money universities are dependent on that you refer to keeps on shrinking &#8212; last time I checked some universities were claiming only 30% of their funding was directly from the government, although I am not sure what exactly this includes). In this case HECS makes much more sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290187</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290187</guid>
		<description>BG,

Yes you can say there&#039;s moral hazard with a HECS style loan for drought relief.  But if you begin with the idea that at least where people do well after the event these things should at least in principle be repaid, then any repayment rate is an improvement on zero which is the case with a grant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BG,</p>
<p>Yes you can say there&#8217;s moral hazard with a HECS style loan for drought relief.  But if you begin with the idea that at least where people do well after the event these things should at least in principle be repaid, then any repayment rate is an improvement on zero which is the case with a grant.</p>
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		<title>By: Backroom Girl</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/08/government-and-the-division-of-labour-any-ideas/#comment-290181</link>
		<dc:creator>Backroom Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=5495#comment-290181</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It is not obvious to me why a good with a large public good component - education - should be taxed more heavily than other things people do to boost their income. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And if you think that the highest levels of public good come from people who make the most use of their education (including to earn income), then one of the weird things about HECS is that it taxes the people providing the most benefit to the public, and lets off those who decide to do nothing with their education.

I&#039;m really not sure at all that HECS-type income-contingent loans are a good policy solution to many of the things they have been proposed for over the years. HECS works pretty well for the thing it was originally designed for - university education for people, most of whom fairly naturally go on to earn higher than average incomes as a result of that education.  But even with something like university education you end up with a fair amount of bad debt because people choose not to use their education to earn sufficient money to pay back their HECS debt (or choose to earn their money overseas).

Once you start extending the principle into areas where lots of people don&#039;t have the capacity to earn high incomes or can choose even more easily not to (eg unemployment, farm or small business support, vocational education, maternity leave, even fines for heaven&#039;s sake), the level of bad debt increases significantly and can even become a large disincentive for people to earn above whatever threshold has been set for repayment.  

So, I don&#039;t really have a problem with the Government being a lender of last resort for people who couldn&#039;t otherwise borrow, but a loan should be treated as a loan and people should be expected to pay it back.  (And as DD said, there should be a good reason for making it a loan rather than a grant in the first place.) Otherwise it seems to me that the moral hazards are too great, especially for people who are not &#039;naturally&#039; high income-earners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It is not obvious to me why a good with a large public good component &#8211; education &#8211; should be taxed more heavily than other things people do to boost their income. </p></blockquote>
<p>And if you think that the highest levels of public good come from people who make the most use of their education (including to earn income), then one of the weird things about HECS is that it taxes the people providing the most benefit to the public, and lets off those who decide to do nothing with their education.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really not sure at all that HECS-type income-contingent loans are a good policy solution to many of the things they have been proposed for over the years. HECS works pretty well for the thing it was originally designed for &#8211; university education for people, most of whom fairly naturally go on to earn higher than average incomes as a result of that education.  But even with something like university education you end up with a fair amount of bad debt because people choose not to use their education to earn sufficient money to pay back their HECS debt (or choose to earn their money overseas).</p>
<p>Once you start extending the principle into areas where lots of people don&#8217;t have the capacity to earn high incomes or can choose even more easily not to (eg unemployment, farm or small business support, vocational education, maternity leave, even fines for heaven&#8217;s sake), the level of bad debt increases significantly and can even become a large disincentive for people to earn above whatever threshold has been set for repayment.  </p>
<p>So, I don&#8217;t really have a problem with the Government being a lender of last resort for people who couldn&#8217;t otherwise borrow, but a loan should be treated as a loan and people should be expected to pay it back.  (And as DD said, there should be a good reason for making it a loan rather than a grant in the first place.) Otherwise it seems to me that the moral hazards are too great, especially for people who are not &#8216;naturally&#8217; high income-earners.</p>
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