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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Getting Ugly</title>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-323043</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-323043</guid>
		<description>Just like the U.S.&#039;s finance industry is the &quot;most innovative&quot;? ;-)

It certainly doesn&#039;t strike me that universal coverage for basic medical needs should have much impact on the degree to which medical technology and techniques remain &quot;innovative&quot;.  Relatively few of the dollars swallowed up by the U.S. health &quot;system&quot; are going to those who develop such technologies/techniques.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just like the U.S.&#8217;s finance industry is the &#8220;most innovative&#8221;? ;-)</p>
<p>It certainly doesn&#8217;t strike me that universal coverage for basic medical needs should have much impact on the degree to which medical technology and techniques remain &#8220;innovative&#8221;.  Relatively few of the dollars swallowed up by the U.S. health &#8220;system&#8221; are going to those who develop such technologies/techniques.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-323039</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-323039</guid>
		<description>But also, &#039;AIUI&#039;, the most innovative and the most developed.

Incidentally, I don&#039;t believe that the current American system is especially good, just that I strongly doubt that a single-payer system will save any great amount of money. Overall, perhaps unsuprisingly, I see healthcare as generally a stultified, over-protected and crappy industry not much better than aviation.

So not a surprise that my personal favorite is medical tourism, which I see as the most exciting (and promising) trade frontier at the moment. There are staggering potential cost savings from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But also, &#8216;AIUI&#8217;, the most innovative and the most developed.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I don&#8217;t believe that the current American system is especially good, just that I strongly doubt that a single-payer system will save any great amount of money. Overall, perhaps unsuprisingly, I see healthcare as generally a stultified, over-protected and crappy industry not much better than aviation.</p>
<p>So not a surprise that my personal favorite is medical tourism, which I see as the most exciting (and promising) trade frontier at the moment. There are staggering potential cost savings from that.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-323018</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-323018</guid>
		<description>Um, the U.S. has by far the most expensive health system in the world, due in large part to the huge administrative overheard involved in having multiple private insurers that individuals and employers need to deal with.

Personally I&#039;d be happy to argue in favour of a single-payer system on various other grounds, but from an economically conservative POV it seems a no brainer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, the U.S. has by far the most expensive health system in the world, due in large part to the huge administrative overheard involved in having multiple private insurers that individuals and employers need to deal with.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d be happy to argue in favour of a single-payer system on various other grounds, but from an economically conservative POV it seems a no brainer.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322987</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322987</guid>
		<description>I can play that game, too, show me one that&#039;s more expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can play that game, too, show me one that&#8217;s more expensive.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322970</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322970</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t &quot;think&quot; it does?  That&#039;s not good enough - show me one example of a private-payer health insurance system that costs less than a single-payer system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t &#8220;think&#8221; it does?  That&#8217;s not good enough &#8211; show me one example of a private-payer health insurance system that costs less than a single-payer system.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322966</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322966</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t think it does, frankly.

And ok, I&#039;m sorry, it might be only a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;few &lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/lewin-group-presents-mccain-obama/story.aspx?guid={CC204977-2FAC-46CC-8A99-DF3886BC6146}&amp;dist=hppr&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;hundred &lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2008/03/a-detailed-anal.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;billions &lt;/a&gt;for now. 

Noting that the Krugman piece suggests $124bn a year for Obama, which is trillions in less than ten years, and given the track record of large government entitlement programs (or indeed any other kind of program), I might stick with trillions, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t think it does, frankly.</p>
<p>And ok, I&#8217;m sorry, it might be only a <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html">few </a><a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/lewin-group-presents-mccain-obama/story.aspx?guid={CC204977-2FAC-46CC-8A99-DF3886BC6146}&amp;dist=hppr">hundred </a><a href="http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2008/03/a-detailed-anal.html">billions </a>for now. </p>
<p>Noting that the Krugman piece suggests $124bn a year for Obama, which is trillions in less than ten years, and given the track record of large government entitlement programs (or indeed any other kind of program), I might stick with trillions, actually.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322945</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322945</guid>
		<description>Why on earth do you think that a single-payer health insurance program would cost trillions, when the evidence fairly clearly indiciates that such programs invariably cost less than private-payer insurance systems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why on earth do you think that a single-payer health insurance program would cost trillions, when the evidence fairly clearly indiciates that such programs invariably cost less than private-payer insurance systems?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322934</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322934</guid>
		<description>NPOV, my claim was leaving Reagan aside. No-one credibly suggests that Clinton&#039;s budgetary restraint was not largely dependent on his legislative restraint (because he didn&#039;t control the legislative) and the lack of any major conflicts. He presided over, in all, a remarkably benign period in American recent history (too benign perhaps, because God knows I would have liked more intervention in eg Rwanda) and reaped the benefits. Fine, I don&#039;t begrudge him that! 

However, it is likely on the polls that Obama would control a Democratic Congress (and in any case the Republicans don&#039;t have a lot of obvious Gringrich&#039;s). Clinton&#039;s example tells us very little about what would happen then, except to the extent that things like Hillarycare probably would have gone ahead, and cost trillions up till now. Oh wait, in fact, Obama is publicly committed to Obamacare - oops, &lt;blockquote&gt;there seems to be &lt;strike&gt;minimal &lt;/strike&gt;&lt;em&gt;massive &lt;/em&gt;grounds for assuming that another Democrat President would preside over significant increase of government programs&lt;/blockquote&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NPOV, my claim was leaving Reagan aside. No-one credibly suggests that Clinton&#8217;s budgetary restraint was not largely dependent on his legislative restraint (because he didn&#8217;t control the legislative) and the lack of any major conflicts. He presided over, in all, a remarkably benign period in American recent history (too benign perhaps, because God knows I would have liked more intervention in eg Rwanda) and reaped the benefits. Fine, I don&#8217;t begrudge him that! </p>
<p>However, it is likely on the polls that Obama would control a Democratic Congress (and in any case the Republicans don&#8217;t have a lot of obvious Gringrich&#8217;s). Clinton&#8217;s example tells us very little about what would happen then, except to the extent that things like Hillarycare probably would have gone ahead, and cost trillions up till now. Oh wait, in fact, Obama is publicly committed to Obamacare &#8211; oops,<br />
<blockquote>there seems to be <strike>minimal </strike><em>massive </em>grounds for assuming that another Democrat President would preside over significant increase of government programs</p></blockquote>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322872</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322872</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t doubt BTW that Reagan had a significant role in thawing U.S.-Soviet relations from about 1985 onward: but that was largely due to his backing off from previous military posturing and opening of arms control negotiations, which should logically have been accompanied by a &lt;em&gt;reduction&lt;/em&gt; in military spending.  Data from http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-US-world.php seems however to indicate that spending continued to grow gradually to 1990, dropped slightly in 1991, jumped significantly in 1992 (the last year of Bush Snr, and a year *after* the USSR collapsed - not sure what the explanation here is), and, as JC noted above, dropped or remained flat through the Clinton Administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t doubt BTW that Reagan had a significant role in thawing U.S.-Soviet relations from about 1985 onward: but that was largely due to his backing off from previous military posturing and opening of arms control negotiations, which should logically have been accompanied by a <em>reduction</em> in military spending.  Data from <a href="http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-US-world.php">http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-US-world.php</a> seems however to indicate that spending continued to grow gradually to 1990, dropped slightly in 1991, jumped significantly in 1992 (the last year of Bush Snr, and a year *after* the USSR collapsed &#8211; not sure what the explanation here is), and, as JC noted above, dropped or remained flat through the Clinton Administration.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322869</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322869</guid>
		<description>Nobody suggested he wanted the Soviet Union to end.  From the article:

&quot;It was Gorbachev&#039;s efforts to &lt;em&gt;reverse the decline&lt;/em&gt; and to modernize his country that knocked the props out from under the system. The revolution was in essence a series of decisions made by one man, and it came as a surprise precisely because it did not follow from a systemic breakdown.&quot;

Now, it would be nice if it went into more detail about what &quot;knocked the props out&quot; meant, and why it was that Gorbachev&#039;s efforts backfired, but it&#039;s pretty clear Gorbachev never intended the result he ultimately got.

Reagan may or may not have had a role to play in ending the Cold War, but there seems tenuous grounds for suggesting that it was the U.S.&#039;s huge military spending during the 80&#039;s that did it.

Either way, given the tiny spending increase recorded during Clinton&#039;s reign, there seems to be minimal grounds for assuming that another Democrat President would preside over significant increase of government programs, which appears to be Patrick&#039;s concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody suggested he wanted the Soviet Union to end.  From the article:</p>
<p>&#8220;It was Gorbachev&#8217;s efforts to <em>reverse the decline</em> and to modernize his country that knocked the props out from under the system. The revolution was in essence a series of decisions made by one man, and it came as a surprise precisely because it did not follow from a systemic breakdown.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now, it would be nice if it went into more detail about what &#8220;knocked the props out&#8221; meant, and why it was that Gorbachev&#8217;s efforts backfired, but it&#8217;s pretty clear Gorbachev never intended the result he ultimately got.</p>
<p>Reagan may or may not have had a role to play in ending the Cold War, but there seems tenuous grounds for suggesting that it was the U.S.&#8217;s huge military spending during the 80&#8242;s that did it.</p>
<p>Either way, given the tiny spending increase recorded during Clinton&#8217;s reign, there seems to be minimal grounds for assuming that another Democrat President would preside over significant increase of government programs, which appears to be Patrick&#8217;s concern.</p>
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		<title>By: JackLacton</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322868</link>
		<dc:creator>JackLacton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322868</guid>
		<description>NPOV,

Reagan killed the Soviet Union.

Simple as that.

Clinton significantly reduced the size of the US military and, thus, gained the &#039;peace dividend&#039;. It was also a time of much reduced international conflict as the proxies of the Soviet Union found themselves without a source of funds.

Simple as that.

Arguments that the Soviet Union came down due to Gorbachev are fallacious. I spent 18 months in Moscow and followed the politics of the place for 30 years. The last thing he wanted was for the Soviet Union to end but as the economy collapsed he was backed into a corner. At least he took the least bloody way out at the end, which is to his credit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NPOV,</p>
<p>Reagan killed the Soviet Union.</p>
<p>Simple as that.</p>
<p>Clinton significantly reduced the size of the US military and, thus, gained the &#8216;peace dividend&#8217;. It was also a time of much reduced international conflict as the proxies of the Soviet Union found themselves without a source of funds.</p>
<p>Simple as that.</p>
<p>Arguments that the Soviet Union came down due to Gorbachev are fallacious. I spent 18 months in Moscow and followed the politics of the place for 30 years. The last thing he wanted was for the Soviet Union to end but as the economy collapsed he was backed into a corner. At least he took the least bloody way out at the end, which is to his credit.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322847</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322847</guid>
		<description>Actually Patrick, it seems the claim that US military build up was responsible for the demise of the USSR and the end of the Cold War &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; pretty controversial.  See here for a start:

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Politics/fitzgerald.html

I actually feel somewhat foolish for repeating the idea unquestioningly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Patrick, it seems the claim that US military build up was responsible for the demise of the USSR and the end of the Cold War <em>is</em> pretty controversial.  See here for a start:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Politics/fitzgerald.html">http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Politics/fitzgerald.html</a></p>
<p>I actually feel somewhat foolish for repeating the idea unquestioningly.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322841</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322841</guid>
		<description>It sounds like a claim that needs a decent, well-thought-out argument replete with evidence to back it up, rather than a single blog post.  I&#039;d be quite willing to suggest the opposite: if Reagan hadn&#039;t spent so much on Star Wars and similar programs, the Cold War might have ended much sooner.  Yes, Russia bankrupted itself trying to match U.S. military might, but at least doing so gave it a purpose.

At any rate, I fully agree that &quot;small government&quot; is just a completely unworkable goal, no matter how admirable it might be.  So what&#039;s the advantage in a presidential candidate that claims to believe in something that&#039;s never going to happen?  Most of central planks of Obama&#039;s platform are at least things that have already succeeded (to varying degrees) elsewhere in the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like a claim that needs a decent, well-thought-out argument replete with evidence to back it up, rather than a single blog post.  I&#8217;d be quite willing to suggest the opposite: if Reagan hadn&#8217;t spent so much on Star Wars and similar programs, the Cold War might have ended much sooner.  Yes, Russia bankrupted itself trying to match U.S. military might, but at least doing so gave it a purpose.</p>
<p>At any rate, I fully agree that &#8220;small government&#8221; is just a completely unworkable goal, no matter how admirable it might be.  So what&#8217;s the advantage in a presidential candidate that claims to believe in something that&#8217;s never going to happen?  Most of central planks of Obama&#8217;s platform are at least things that have already succeeded (to varying degrees) elsewhere in the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322840</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322840</guid>
		<description>Without necessarily attributing it to Reagan, that doesn&#039;t sound very controversial NPOV. 

But more significant must be that Clinton almost never controlled Congress. I suspect that Hillarycare might have cost a little motza, for example.

So if you are making a statistical argument in favour of a divided government, I would be tempted to support you. Unfortunately recent evidence suggests that neither hell nor high water can come between politicians and our money, and certainly nothing as trivial as partisan differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without necessarily attributing it to Reagan, that doesn&#8217;t sound very controversial NPOV. </p>
<p>But more significant must be that Clinton almost never controlled Congress. I suspect that Hillarycare might have cost a little motza, for example.</p>
<p>So if you are making a statistical argument in favour of a divided government, I would be tempted to support you. Unfortunately recent evidence suggests that neither hell nor high water can come between politicians and our money, and certainly nothing as trivial as partisan differences.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322837</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322837</guid>
		<description>I take it you&#039;re crediting Reagan&#039;s spending with ending the Cold War, and suggest Clinton benefitted economically from that?  You want to make a serious attempt at establishing that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take it you&#8217;re crediting Reagan&#8217;s spending with ending the Cold War, and suggest Clinton benefitted economically from that?  You want to make a serious attempt at establishing that?</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322835</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322835</guid>
		<description>N

What was Clinton&#039;s result after the peace dividend as a consequence of the Cold War&#039;s end?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>N</p>
<p>What was Clinton&#8217;s result after the peace dividend as a consequence of the Cold War&#8217;s end?</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322834</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322834</guid>
		<description>http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_10/bradford-reagan.html

has some interesting data on how much government spending increased under various Presidents.  Clinton comes in as by the lowest at +0.81% per capita.  Reagan was almost 3 times as profligate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_10/bradford-reagan.html">http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_10/bradford-reagan.html</a></p>
<p>has some interesting data on how much government spending increased under various Presidents.  Clinton comes in as by the lowest at +0.81% per capita.  Reagan was almost 3 times as profligate.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322833</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322833</guid>
		<description>I could care less if McCain and/or Palin prefer &quot;less government to more&quot;.  But where&#039;s the slightest evidence that any admininstration under their watch would actually implement &quot;less goverment&quot;?

Even Reagan, the only president in recent history with a strong &quot;less government&quot; stance implemented all sorts of &quot;big government&quot; type programs.

In fact, the only Western government in modern times that seems to have achieved any genuinely noticeable reduction in government scope and spending was the ALP under Hawke and Keating.

As far as Obama&#039;s &quot;deep-seated conviction&quot; - name one leader that didn&#039;t improve his or her nation without some sort of conviction to do so?  And the idea that &quot;most&quot; government-initiated programs are inefficient and counter-productive really is hogwash.  What I care about is whether Obama or McCain is more likely to initiate inefficient and counter-productive policies.  On that front, I&#039;m pretty sure I could name more McCain policies likely to be so than Obama ones (including his recent announcement of buying up bad mortgages at full value).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could care less if McCain and/or Palin prefer &#8220;less government to more&#8221;.  But where&#8217;s the slightest evidence that any admininstration under their watch would actually implement &#8220;less goverment&#8221;?</p>
<p>Even Reagan, the only president in recent history with a strong &#8220;less government&#8221; stance implemented all sorts of &#8220;big government&#8221; type programs.</p>
<p>In fact, the only Western government in modern times that seems to have achieved any genuinely noticeable reduction in government scope and spending was the ALP under Hawke and Keating.</p>
<p>As far as Obama&#8217;s &#8220;deep-seated conviction&#8221; &#8211; name one leader that didn&#8217;t improve his or her nation without some sort of conviction to do so?  And the idea that &#8220;most&#8221; government-initiated programs are inefficient and counter-productive really is hogwash.  What I care about is whether Obama or McCain is more likely to initiate inefficient and counter-productive policies.  On that front, I&#8217;m pretty sure I could name more McCain policies likely to be so than Obama ones (including his recent announcement of buying up bad mortgages at full value).</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322831</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 05:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322831</guid>
		<description>What I can&#039;t stand about Obama is his apparently deep-seated conviction that &#039;&lt;em&gt;yes we can&lt;/em&gt;&#039;, when to my eyes nearly every page of history tells us something more like: &lt;em&gt;well, yes, we may be able to, but it will surely be a lot more expensive and inefficient and is much more likely to be wholly counter-productive than if we don&#039;t&lt;/em&gt;.

Whereas I expect both McCain and, even more so, Palin, to prefer at almost any given junction, less government to more. Which I firmly believe is likely to make us all much better off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I can&#8217;t stand about Obama is his apparently deep-seated conviction that &#8216;<em>yes we can</em>&#8216;, when to my eyes nearly every page of history tells us something more like: <em>well, yes, we may be able to, but it will surely be a lot more expensive and inefficient and is much more likely to be wholly counter-productive than if we don&#8217;t</em>.</p>
<p>Whereas I expect both McCain and, even more so, Palin, to prefer at almost any given junction, less government to more. Which I firmly believe is likely to make us all much better off.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingolf</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322791</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322791</guid>
		<description>Perhaps there isn&#039;t such thing as a qualified politician, Patrick. Indeed, I sometimes wonder if the very desire to seek the job doesn&#039;t rule someone out as suitable. Still, there are surely degrees of disqualification.

The US presidency is much too big a job for any man or woman, certainly while America sees itself as &quot;the exceptional nation&quot;, ordained to lead others out of error and protect all freedom loving peoples. I don&#039;t see this changing anytime soon; there&#039;s just too much inertia, and pride, at stake. That&#039;s why the degree of disqualification of their candidates is so critical.

If Palin (as Ron Paul actually does) dreamt of returning America to its modest Republican roots and dismantling the excesses of empire, temperament might well be the most important qualification. Unfortunately, both parties are locked into continued projection of American power; the Republicans in their Jacobin crusade and the Democrats in their slightly more cuddly version. Knowledge of the world is therefore critical for whoever takes the hot seat; bad could so easily go to worse.

If Palin knew her limitations, and had sufficient intelligence and commonsense, there might be some hope. She so clearly doesn&#039;t, though; saying yes to the job offer without blinking confirmed that and nothing we&#039;ve seen since gives any cause to reconsider. Rather the opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps there isn&#8217;t such thing as a qualified politician, Patrick. Indeed, I sometimes wonder if the very desire to seek the job doesn&#8217;t rule someone out as suitable. Still, there are surely degrees of disqualification.</p>
<p>The US presidency is much too big a job for any man or woman, certainly while America sees itself as &#8220;the exceptional nation&#8221;, ordained to lead others out of error and protect all freedom loving peoples. I don&#8217;t see this changing anytime soon; there&#8217;s just too much inertia, and pride, at stake. That&#8217;s why the degree of disqualification of their candidates is so critical.</p>
<p>If Palin (as Ron Paul actually does) dreamt of returning America to its modest Republican roots and dismantling the excesses of empire, temperament might well be the most important qualification. Unfortunately, both parties are locked into continued projection of American power; the Republicans in their Jacobin crusade and the Democrats in their slightly more cuddly version. Knowledge of the world is therefore critical for whoever takes the hot seat; bad could so easily go to worse.</p>
<p>If Palin knew her limitations, and had sufficient intelligence and commonsense, there might be some hope. She so clearly doesn&#8217;t, though; saying yes to the job offer without blinking confirmed that and nothing we&#8217;ve seen since gives any cause to reconsider. Rather the opposite.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322776</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322776</guid>
		<description>Arcadia? Please explain...?

But FWIW, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any reason to think either Obama and McCain wouldn&#039;t make competent presidents, as would Joe Biden.  How how anyone could think that of Palin, especially after four years of Bush (and Palin is almost a caricature of Bush), would make a competent president is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arcadia? Please explain&#8230;?</p>
<p>But FWIW, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any reason to think either Obama and McCain wouldn&#8217;t make competent presidents, as would Joe Biden.  How how anyone could think that of Palin, especially after four years of Bush (and Palin is almost a caricature of Bush), would make a competent president is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322757</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322757</guid>
		<description>Spiro Agnew!

I am not so upset over Palin. I am coming to believe that there is no such thing as  a qualified politician. Seriously, what would you in Arcadia (which obviously wouldn&#039;t have a President) designate as qualifications for a President?

Who can you think of that has met them recently?

I sometimes (less often) think temperament is about the only real issue left on which to vote on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spiro Agnew!</p>
<p>I am not so upset over Palin. I am coming to believe that there is no such thing as  a qualified politician. Seriously, what would you in Arcadia (which obviously wouldn&#8217;t have a President) designate as qualifications for a President?</p>
<p>Who can you think of that has met them recently?</p>
<p>I sometimes (less often) think temperament is about the only real issue left on which to vote on.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322755</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322755</guid>
		<description>My &#039;purported&#039; qualifier above was probably unnecessary - his released medical records show he has a Stage II malignant melanoma that supposedly means his probability of surviving another 5 years is about 78%.
And remember that while Reagan&#039;s medical bill of health was perfectly clean,  within 6 or 7 years of taking office he began to develop Alzeimher&#039;s.  Age is a risk just on its own.

Does this mean I think McCain is unfit to be president?  No - plenty of past presidents had arguably more serious health issues.  But they were backed up by essentially competent VPs that, as far as I know, weren&#039;t religious fundies that believed in rapture and creationism.

BTW, does anyone have any statistics on how many VPs have been required to take over presidential duties in, say, the last 50 years?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My &#8216;purported&#8217; qualifier above was probably unnecessary &#8211; his released medical records show he has a Stage II malignant melanoma that supposedly means his probability of surviving another 5 years is about 78%.<br />
And remember that while Reagan&#8217;s medical bill of health was perfectly clean,  within 6 or 7 years of taking office he began to develop Alzeimher&#8217;s.  Age is a risk just on its own.</p>
<p>Does this mean I think McCain is unfit to be president?  No &#8211; plenty of past presidents had arguably more serious health issues.  But they were backed up by essentially competent VPs that, as far as I know, weren&#8217;t religious fundies that believed in rapture and creationism.</p>
<p>BTW, does anyone have any statistics on how many VPs have been required to take over presidential duties in, say, the last 50 years?</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322753</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322753</guid>
		<description>Hmm, sorry, it wasn&#039;t his presidential campaign that Ayers supported, but his Senate campaign.  Obama appears to have had no associated with Ayers since 2002.
But much the same argument holds - just replace &quot;president&quot; with &quot;political representative&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, sorry, it wasn&#8217;t his presidential campaign that Ayers supported, but his Senate campaign.  Obama appears to have had no associated with Ayers since 2002.<br />
But much the same argument holds &#8211; just replace &#8220;president&#8221; with &#8220;political representative&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/07/its-getting-ugly/#comment-322752</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6020#comment-322752</guid>
		<description>Patrick, that&#039;s just silly. Ayers is a lefty - he obviously saw Obama as being a realistic chance at being somewhat left-leaning president.  Why would he not support him?

I can understand you being comfortable with McCain, but you can&#039;t seriously tell me you&#039;re comfortable with Palin?  And given his age and purported health issues, the chance of Palin needing to take the reigns, temporarily or otherwise, can&#039;t be dismissed out of hand.  The thought Palin as the arguably the most powerful individual in the world scares the bejesus out of me.  I&#039;d take another 4 years of Bush over that possibility any day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick, that&#8217;s just silly. Ayers is a lefty &#8211; he obviously saw Obama as being a realistic chance at being somewhat left-leaning president.  Why would he not support him?</p>
<p>I can understand you being comfortable with McCain, but you can&#8217;t seriously tell me you&#8217;re comfortable with Palin?  And given his age and purported health issues, the chance of Palin needing to take the reigns, temporarily or otherwise, can&#8217;t be dismissed out of hand.  The thought Palin as the arguably the most powerful individual in the world scares the bejesus out of me.  I&#8217;d take another 4 years of Bush over that possibility any day.</p>
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