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	<title>Comments on: Some thoughts about the fiscal stimulus &#8211; and a flashback</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Spend. Spend. Spend&#8230;Save at catallaxyfiles</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-348117</link>
		<dc:creator>Spend. Spend. Spend&#8230;Save at catallaxyfiles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-348117</guid>
		<description>[...] is Nicholas Gruen saying so on 21 October 2008. Rudds package unloads one percent of GDP, most of it next month. Were going much earlier, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is Nicholas Gruen saying so on 21 October 2008. Rudds package unloads one percent of GDP, most of it next month. Were going much earlier, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Niall</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-326027</link>
		<dc:creator>Niall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-326027</guid>
		<description>Indeed, we&#039;re all Keynesians now!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, we&#8217;re all Keynesians now!</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325686</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325686</guid>
		<description>But Jacques borrowing for property investment is *generally* sound - though I certainly agree that negative gearing needs revisiting, and potentially  dumping completely.  It&#039;s borrowing to purchase items that depreciate in value that the&#039;s problem.  Seeing as almost all credit card purchases are like this, I&#039;d be keen to see much high government fees or taxes on credit cards, especially the &quot;buy now, pay no interest for 48 months&quot; type (currently the fee is only about $2/month - I&#039;d be pushing for $20).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Jacques borrowing for property investment is *generally* sound &#8211; though I certainly agree that negative gearing needs revisiting, and potentially  dumping completely.  It&#8217;s borrowing to purchase items that depreciate in value that the&#8217;s problem.  Seeing as almost all credit card purchases are like this, I&#8217;d be keen to see much high government fees or taxes on credit cards, especially the &#8220;buy now, pay no interest for 48 months&#8221; type (currently the fee is only about $2/month &#8211; I&#8217;d be pushing for $20).</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325663</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325663</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In this case, theres almost certainly room for government policy on taxes and fees to discourage lifestyle borrowing, but its going to take a brave government to do it (the electorate wont like it, and theyll inevitably be accused of nanny-statism).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It might be easier to concentrate people&#039;s thinking about what they borrow for by phasing out income tax exemptions of the &quot;GET SUPER FILTHY RUB-IT-IN-PEOPLE&#039;S-FACES-AT-YOUR-HIGHSCHOOL-REUNION RICH IN FIFTY FOUR AND A HALF MINUTES THRU NEGATIVE GEARING, STARTING WITH ONLY $2.75 AND SOME GUM!&quot; variety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In this case, theres almost certainly room for government policy on taxes and fees to discourage lifestyle borrowing, but its going to take a brave government to do it (the electorate wont like it, and theyll inevitably be accused of nanny-statism).</p></blockquote>
<p>It might be easier to concentrate people&#8217;s thinking about what they borrow for by phasing out income tax exemptions of the &#8220;GET SUPER FILTHY RUB-IT-IN-PEOPLE&#8217;S-FACES-AT-YOUR-HIGHSCHOOL-REUNION RICH IN FIFTY FOUR AND A HALF MINUTES THRU NEGATIVE GEARING, STARTING WITH ONLY $2.75 AND SOME GUM!&#8221; variety.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325573</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325573</guid>
		<description>d.d. - I&#039;d certainly agree that there should be minimal government-imposed fixed costs of employing people, but there will be always be large fixed costs anyway, so I&#039;m not sure that a somewhat more flexible labour market than we have today would make a huge difference here.
From an income tax POV: employing two 19 hr/wk workers that are able to take home ~$33K net annual income each means paying them both $40K.  Employing one 38/wk worker able to take home $66K net annual income means paying him/her $90K.  So there&#039;s already a $10K benefit there, but perhaps there&#039;s an argument for increasing it via a more progressive income tax structure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>d.d. &#8211; I&#8217;d certainly agree that there should be minimal government-imposed fixed costs of employing people, but there will be always be large fixed costs anyway, so I&#8217;m not sure that a somewhat more flexible labour market than we have today would make a huge difference here.<br />
From an income tax POV: employing two 19 hr/wk workers that are able to take home ~$33K net annual income each means paying them both $40K.  Employing one 38/wk worker able to take home $66K net annual income means paying him/her $90K.  So there&#8217;s already a $10K benefit there, but perhaps there&#8217;s an argument for increasing it via a more progressive income tax structure.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325534</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 03:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325534</guid>
		<description>NPOV, I agree the welfare losses of widespread underemployment are much less than the welfare losses of widespread unemployment.  I think that this is one of the better arguments for having a flexible labour market, because flexibility reduces the &lt;strong&gt;fixed&lt;/strong&gt; costs of employing someone and so encourages employers to spread both the pleasure of a boom and the pain of a bust.

The rise in unemployment from a given reduction in GDP is now less than it was in 1983 or 1991, and the increasing prevalence of part time work is one of the reasons (along with slower labour force growth).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NPOV, I agree the welfare losses of widespread underemployment are much less than the welfare losses of widespread unemployment.  I think that this is one of the better arguments for having a flexible labour market, because flexibility reduces the <strong>fixed</strong> costs of employing someone and so encourages employers to spread both the pleasure of a boom and the pain of a bust.</p>
<p>The rise in unemployment from a given reduction in GDP is now less than it was in 1983 or 1991, and the increasing prevalence of part time work is one of the reasons (along with slower labour force growth).</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325527</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325527</guid>
		<description>&quot;you could have said more leisure or you could have said taking some more time off.&quot;

And if this was what was likely to happen, it mightn&#039;t be an issue.  But realistically it&#039;s not - employers by and large like having full-time workers, and will keep the ones they can most readily determine are still helping their companies remain profitably, and fire the others.  Perhaps this something that can influenced by government policy, but of course the French have recently been effectively forced to do the opposite, and raise the length of the working week.  Still, it might be possible with tax incentives to encourage employers to keep more employees with fewer working hours rather than keep fewer full-time employees.

Further, I would think as long as so many households have so much household debt, no-growth is problematic as the necessity to pay back those debts with interest actually equates to a gradual drop in living standards.  In this case, there&#039;s almost certainly room for government policy on taxes and fees to discourage &quot;lifestyle borrowing&quot;, but it&#039;s going to take a brave government to do it (the electorate won&#039;t like it, and they&#039;ll inevitably be accused of nanny-statism).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you could have said more leisure or you could have said taking some more time off.&#8221;</p>
<p>And if this was what was likely to happen, it mightn&#8217;t be an issue.  But realistically it&#8217;s not &#8211; employers by and large like having full-time workers, and will keep the ones they can most readily determine are still helping their companies remain profitably, and fire the others.  Perhaps this something that can influenced by government policy, but of course the French have recently been effectively forced to do the opposite, and raise the length of the working week.  Still, it might be possible with tax incentives to encourage employers to keep more employees with fewer working hours rather than keep fewer full-time employees.</p>
<p>Further, I would think as long as so many households have so much household debt, no-growth is problematic as the necessity to pay back those debts with interest actually equates to a gradual drop in living standards.  In this case, there&#8217;s almost certainly room for government policy on taxes and fees to discourage &#8220;lifestyle borrowing&#8221;, but it&#8217;s going to take a brave government to do it (the electorate won&#8217;t like it, and they&#8217;ll inevitably be accused of nanny-statism).</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325525</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325525</guid>
		<description>our greed always finds a reason to want more. In stead of more unemployment, you could have said more leisure or you could have said &#039;taking some more time off&#039;. It is our societal attitudes towards work and more wealth that makes people think of themselves as worthless when they are not part of the rat-race, not the absence of growth itself. Learning to be comfortable with the idea that we are rich enough also includes figuring out how to spend lots of time outside of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>our greed always finds a reason to want more. In stead of more unemployment, you could have said more leisure or you could have said &#8216;taking some more time off&#8217;. It is our societal attitudes towards work and more wealth that makes people think of themselves as worthless when they are not part of the rat-race, not the absence of growth itself. Learning to be comfortable with the idea that we are rich enough also includes figuring out how to spend lots of time outside of work.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325522</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325522</guid>
		<description>&quot;...the merest hint of the nation being only just as rich next year as this year (no growth) creates a national crisis atmosphere...&quot;

Except that &quot;no growth&quot; almost always means &quot;more unemployment&quot;.  And while &quot;no growth&quot; might not sound so bad to those of us already living comfortable existences, there are still a lot of a people in Australia who have good reason to desire better living standards, and many of them are the ones most likely end up unemployed if economic growth stalls.  Given that we&#039;ve yet to figure how to translate &quot;no/low growth&quot; into &quot;everyone maintaining decent living standards&quot; then the &quot;crisis atmosphere&quot; is not completely unjustified, even though I agree it should have no bearing on the urgency of addressing long-term environmental concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;the merest hint of the nation being only just as rich next year as this year (no growth) creates a national crisis atmosphere&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Except that &#8220;no growth&#8221; almost always means &#8220;more unemployment&#8221;.  And while &#8220;no growth&#8221; might not sound so bad to those of us already living comfortable existences, there are still a lot of a people in Australia who have good reason to desire better living standards, and many of them are the ones most likely end up unemployed if economic growth stalls.  Given that we&#8217;ve yet to figure how to translate &#8220;no/low growth&#8221; into &#8220;everyone maintaining decent living standards&#8221; then the &#8220;crisis atmosphere&#8221; is not completely unjustified, even though I agree it should have no bearing on the urgency of addressing long-term environmental concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325520</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325520</guid>
		<description>hmmm. Internationally, we&#039;ve talking about emergency loans to banks in the order of 10% of GDP (Uk/Europe). We&#039;ve been talking about guarantees of bank deposits worth close to 100% of GDP (M3 is about the same size as GDP). And now there is a fiscal stimulus package worth a whole 1% of GDP and this is equivalent to &#039;going hard&#039;? In case of a recession, the automatic stabilizers of taxation and welfare alone would involve more than that. You shouldnt believe everything you read.

What I find most interesting is that the merest hint of the nation being only just as rich next year as this year (no growth) creates a national crisis atmosphere paling the climate debate. Our attachment to material wealth is truly astounding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmm. Internationally, we&#8217;ve talking about emergency loans to banks in the order of 10% of GDP (Uk/Europe). We&#8217;ve been talking about guarantees of bank deposits worth close to 100% of GDP (M3 is about the same size as GDP). And now there is a fiscal stimulus package worth a whole 1% of GDP and this is equivalent to &#8216;going hard&#8217;? In case of a recession, the automatic stabilizers of taxation and welfare alone would involve more than that. You shouldnt believe everything you read.</p>
<p>What I find most interesting is that the merest hint of the nation being only just as rich next year as this year (no growth) creates a national crisis atmosphere paling the climate debate. Our attachment to material wealth is truly astounding.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325294</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325294</guid>
		<description>This was a very interesting article.  I was most intrigued by these sentences.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Were going much earlier, faster and harder than last time. And were unapologetic about one off giveaways to families wholl spend most of it quickly.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Who are &#039;we&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a very interesting article.  I was most intrigued by these sentences.</p>
<blockquote><p>Were going much earlier, faster and harder than last time. And were unapologetic about one off giveaways to families wholl spend most of it quickly.</p></blockquote>
<p>Who are &#8216;we&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325290</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325290</guid>
		<description>The bit that disturbs me is the increase in the first home owner grant.

The PM is telling me that it&#039;s a good time to buy a home and that I should get onto the ladder.

But to be honest, I&#039;m worried that once I climb the ladder and slip the mortgage noose around my neck a trap door will spring open and house prices will collapse.

Of course &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1379/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=Flinders_University_International_Expert_Symposium.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Edwards assures me&lt;/a&gt; that &quot;By the middle of 2007 there was no Australian housing boom to puncture&quot; but I&#039;m not willing to bet everything I own on Edwards being right. I&#039;m inclined to wait and see.

Every time I see an advertisement for a property investment seminar or hear someone say that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.melbourneinvestor.com.au/have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;property prices double every 10 years&lt;/a&gt; I get nervous. The market seems to be crawling with speculators (sorry ... that&#039;s impolite, I meant to say &#039;investors&#039;) who are using equity in their family home to buy second and third properties.

With so much debt backed by house values, what happens if unemployment rises and property values start to fall?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bit that disturbs me is the increase in the first home owner grant.</p>
<p>The PM is telling me that it&#8217;s a good time to buy a home and that I should get onto the ladder.</p>
<p>But to be honest, I&#8217;m worried that once I climb the ladder and slip the mortgage noose around my neck a trap door will spring open and house prices will collapse.</p>
<p>Of course <a href="http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1379/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=Flinders_University_International_Expert_Symposium.htm">John Edwards assures me</a> that &#8220;By the middle of 2007 there was no Australian housing boom to puncture&#8221; but I&#8217;m not willing to bet everything I own on Edwards being right. I&#8217;m inclined to wait and see.</p>
<p>Every time I see an advertisement for a property investment seminar or hear someone say that <a href="http://www.melbourneinvestor.com.au/have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too.htm">property prices double every 10 years</a> I get nervous. The market seems to be crawling with speculators (sorry &#8230; that&#8217;s impolite, I meant to say &#8216;investors&#8217;) who are using equity in their family home to buy second and third properties.</p>
<p>With so much debt backed by house values, what happens if unemployment rises and property values start to fall?</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325284</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325284</guid>
		<description>Yep, that&#039;s the weakness of this government&#039;s style - great tactics (&quot;resolute and fleet-footed&quot; as you say) but no strategy.  They don&#039;t try and create a climate of opinion to prepare for a sharp change, in the way that Howard was so good at (I thought on a number of occasions Howard gave the impression of reluctantly falling into line with the chatterati when in fact the line had originated with him).

But its not too late for them to dig themselves out of this particular hole.  A recession is a convincing reason to say &quot;all bets are off&quot;, so the unwise election commitment shouldn&#039;t be much problem.  Extreme fiscal rectitude was only ever the conventional wisdom of the policy elites anyway, who are precisely the groups who can be persuaded of the need for a U-turn.  And I can&#039;t see the average punter looking much past the bribes that a big deficit enables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, that&#8217;s the weakness of this government&#8217;s style &#8211; great tactics (&#8220;resolute and fleet-footed&#8221; as you say) but no strategy.  They don&#8217;t try and create a climate of opinion to prepare for a sharp change, in the way that Howard was so good at (I thought on a number of occasions Howard gave the impression of reluctantly falling into line with the chatterati when in fact the line had originated with him).</p>
<p>But its not too late for them to dig themselves out of this particular hole.  A recession is a convincing reason to say &#8220;all bets are off&#8221;, so the unwise election commitment shouldn&#8217;t be much problem.  Extreme fiscal rectitude was only ever the conventional wisdom of the policy elites anyway, who are precisely the groups who can be persuaded of the need for a U-turn.  And I can&#8217;t see the average punter looking much past the bribes that a big deficit enables.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Lovell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/10/21/some-thoughts-about-the-fiscal-stimulus-and-a-flashback/#comment-325237</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6188#comment-325237</guid>
		<description>The hits from the opposition will of course carry more weight - and deservedly so - because of Rudd&#039;s idiotic promise to keep a surplus of at least 1% of GDP for his first term in office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The hits from the opposition will of course carry more weight &#8211; and deservedly so &#8211; because of Rudd&#8217;s idiotic promise to keep a surplus of at least 1% of GDP for his first term in office.</p>
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