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	<title>Comments on: A super way to stimulate the economy</title>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334551</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334551</guid>
		<description>Paul,

I can understand the keeping the powder dry argument when it&#039;s a one off effect - as it is with the $10.4 party we&#039;re throwing next week.  But a reduction in compulsory super is an ongoing effect - it could well build up over time as people habituate.  Until you turn the tap off that is. I get mystified by the same &#039;lets keep our powder dry&#039; argument with monetary policy.  If you&#039;re trying to loosen policy, there&#039;s nothing like loosening policy - not keeping loosening in your pocket so you can loosen. That seems strange to me. But then just about everyone talks like that - so who am I to argue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>I can understand the keeping the powder dry argument when it&#8217;s a one off effect &#8211; as it is with the $10.4 party we&#8217;re throwing next week.  But a reduction in compulsory super is an ongoing effect &#8211; it could well build up over time as people habituate.  Until you turn the tap off that is. I get mystified by the same &#8216;lets keep our powder dry&#8217; argument with monetary policy.  If you&#8217;re trying to loosen policy, there&#8217;s nothing like loosening policy &#8211; not keeping loosening in your pocket so you can loosen. That seems strange to me. But then just about everyone talks like that &#8211; so who am I to argue?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Hodgson</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334531</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hodgson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334531</guid>
		<description>I suspect that temporarily lowering the SGC for people under 35 or people under 40 to say 5 or 6 per cent might be better policy (a) because this age group would be most likely to spend the extra in their pay packets; and (b) because there is more time for them to catch up later with retirement savings than there would be for older wage earners.

(It&#039;d need some tweaking of payroll software packages but this would (or should) be trivial.)

Agree with Joshua Gans #2, This could be modelled by Treasury (as if Treasury hasn&#039;t already got enough on its plate!).  It&#039;s worth modelling.

I&#039;m a bit concerned, however, that we&#039;re all tempted to fire off all the ammo all at once - in the very first phase of a bad recession, when things are likely to be far worse next June or next December.  We need to keep some powder dry and there&#039;s every likelihood in my view that the downturn will run for a long while yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that temporarily lowering the SGC for people under 35 or people under 40 to say 5 or 6 per cent might be better policy (a) because this age group would be most likely to spend the extra in their pay packets; and (b) because there is more time for them to catch up later with retirement savings than there would be for older wage earners.</p>
<p>(It&#8217;d need some tweaking of payroll software packages but this would (or should) be trivial.)</p>
<p>Agree with Joshua Gans #2, This could be modelled by Treasury (as if Treasury hasn&#8217;t already got enough on its plate!).  It&#8217;s worth modelling.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a bit concerned, however, that we&#8217;re all tempted to fire off all the ammo all at once &#8211; in the very first phase of a bad recession, when things are likely to be far worse next June or next December.  We need to keep some powder dry and there&#8217;s every likelihood in my view that the downturn will run for a long while yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334277</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334277</guid>
		<description>Fred, Sinclair,

You could try to prevent people not taking the super cut, but I doubt it&#039;s worth it.  (Perhaps I&#039;m wrong - there might be something to think about there at the top end with richies salting it away in super, though I doubt you&#039;d do any more than just save some Govt money - I doubt you&#039;d push consumption much.  But I digress.)

On assumption that people could take their wage cut and pay it back into (voluntary) super, it seems sensible just to let them opt out.  So if they tick some box, their employer would be obliged to keep paying 9% of their wages into super. 

Peter, 

Yes, as suggested in the post, tax receipts from wages would probably go up by more than they went down from lower super contribution taxes. We&#039;re looking at a fiscal contraction that stimulates the economy (presuming a reasonable propensity to consume).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred, Sinclair,</p>
<p>You could try to prevent people not taking the super cut, but I doubt it&#8217;s worth it.  (Perhaps I&#8217;m wrong &#8211; there might be something to think about there at the top end with richies salting it away in super, though I doubt you&#8217;d do any more than just save some Govt money &#8211; I doubt you&#8217;d push consumption much.  But I digress.)</p>
<p>On assumption that people could take their wage cut and pay it back into (voluntary) super, it seems sensible just to let them opt out.  So if they tick some box, their employer would be obliged to keep paying 9% of their wages into super. </p>
<p>Peter, </p>
<p>Yes, as suggested in the post, tax receipts from wages would probably go up by more than they went down from lower super contribution taxes. We&#8217;re looking at a fiscal contraction that stimulates the economy (presuming a reasonable propensity to consume).</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334276</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334276</guid>
		<description>As Joshua points out, all this assumes that the de jure rate of super contribution in fact represents forced saving - which is precisely the point I keep taking issue with.  There &lt;strong&gt;will&lt;/strong&gt; be lots of offsetting behaviour at the margin when you vary the rate.  Raising it during a boom in particular is likely to stimulate offsetting wage claims - exactly what you don&#039;t want.  There&#039;s more merit in lowering it in a recession, but that&#039;s partly because the whole compulsory super thing is welfare-reducing anyway.

As for the so-called &quot;benefits&quot; of raising it further in the long term, I won&#039;t bore you with my oft-repeated arguments against it.  The idea&#039;s recurrent popularity has more to do with the power of vested interests than any public policy merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Joshua points out, all this assumes that the de jure rate of super contribution in fact represents forced saving &#8211; which is precisely the point I keep taking issue with.  There <strong>will</strong> be lots of offsetting behaviour at the margin when you vary the rate.  Raising it during a boom in particular is likely to stimulate offsetting wage claims &#8211; exactly what you don&#8217;t want.  There&#8217;s more merit in lowering it in a recession, but that&#8217;s partly because the whole compulsory super thing is welfare-reducing anyway.</p>
<p>As for the so-called &#8220;benefits&#8221; of raising it further in the long term, I won&#8217;t bore you with my oft-repeated arguments against it.  The idea&#8217;s recurrent popularity has more to do with the power of vested interests than any public policy merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Whiteford</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334262</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Whiteford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334262</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t employees also have to pay income tax on any temporary wage increase?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t employees also have to pay income tax on any temporary wage increase?</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334248</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334248</guid>
		<description>I rather like the idea of a law which reduces compulsory super in the short term, while beefing it up in the long term, although I too wonder a little for clarification on Sinclair Davidson&#039;s query. 

But I would strongly object to another increase to &quot;at least 12 per cent to fund retirement&quot; - unless you first do something about the unfairness of the tax system (something you seem to endorse.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I rather like the idea of a law which reduces compulsory super in the short term, while beefing it up in the long term, although I too wonder a little for clarification on Sinclair Davidson&#8217;s query. </p>
<p>But I would strongly object to another increase to &#8220;at least 12 per cent to fund retirement&#8221; &#8211; unless you first do something about the unfairness of the tax system (something you seem to endorse.)</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334197</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334197</guid>
		<description>&quot;The other issue is that the reduced super might just go into the mortgage&quot;

You&#039;re the economist here, but surely any time the government makes more cash available to citizens, it&#039;s going to result in more spending &lt;em&gt;than would have occurred otherwise&lt;/em&gt;?  Sure, it may also result in more saving, and higher levels of debt-payment, but for those that are inclined to do as such in the current economic circumstances, then there&#039;s a reasonable chance they will cut back on consumption in order to do so - which is where extra available cash helps, as it allows those people to save more, or pay off debts faster, while maintaining existing levels of consumption.  Further, if people are saving more and paying off mortgages faster, won&#039;t this have a positive affect on the banks&#039; willingness to lend?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The other issue is that the reduced super might just go into the mortgage&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re the economist here, but surely any time the government makes more cash available to citizens, it&#8217;s going to result in more spending <em>than would have occurred otherwise</em>?  Sure, it may also result in more saving, and higher levels of debt-payment, but for those that are inclined to do as such in the current economic circumstances, then there&#8217;s a reasonable chance they will cut back on consumption in order to do so &#8211; which is where extra available cash helps, as it allows those people to save more, or pay off debts faster, while maintaining existing levels of consumption.  Further, if people are saving more and paying off mortgages faster, won&#8217;t this have a positive affect on the banks&#8217; willingness to lend?</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Gans</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334192</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Gans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334192</guid>
		<description>OK this is more interesting. However, how many are making more than the minimal super contributions so as to get the Costello tax break? Unless, the saving is really forced you won&#039;t get much of a consumption bump.

The other issue is that the reduced super might just go into the mortgage. So there is no consumption increase there either.

That said, this change might really help the lower income segment in the economy so it could be a good thing.

It couldn&#039;t hurt for Treasury to do some modeling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK this is more interesting. However, how many are making more than the minimal super contributions so as to get the Costello tax break? Unless, the saving is really forced you won&#8217;t get much of a consumption bump.</p>
<p>The other issue is that the reduced super might just go into the mortgage. So there is no consumption increase there either.</p>
<p>That said, this change might really help the lower income segment in the economy so it could be a good thing.</p>
<p>It couldn&#8217;t hurt for Treasury to do some modeling.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/01/super-ways-to-stimulate-the-economy/#comment-334190</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6567#comment-334190</guid>
		<description>For clarification, what does this sentence mean?

&lt;blockquote&gt;For those employees who didnt opt out and maintain their contributions, their employers would be required to pay any reduced employee payments into their normal wages. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For clarification, what does this sentence mean?</p>
<blockquote><p>For those employees who didnt opt out and maintain their contributions, their employers would be required to pay any reduced employee payments into their normal wages. </p></blockquote>
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