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	<title>Comments on: Pope Benedict message</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 13:31:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342507</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342507</guid>
		<description>I was letting you guys go at it as you seemed to be enjoying yourselves. 

Someone threatened us with &#039;taking things further&#039; and so we intervened. 

Nothing to do with taking sides CL. But I must confess I really was interested in your responses to the issues I noted above. 

Anyway, the offer for us to remove anything you wish remains open, but the thread, alas, does not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was letting you guys go at it as you seemed to be enjoying yourselves. </p>
<p>Someone threatened us with &#8216;taking things further&#8217; and so we intervened. </p>
<p>Nothing to do with taking sides CL. But I must confess I really was interested in your responses to the issues I noted above. </p>
<p>Anyway, the offer for us to remove anything you wish remains open, but the thread, alas, does not.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342506</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342506</guid>
		<description>Nick gets his revenge for my earlier demolition of his Pius XII nonsense. Strangely, he allowed me to be described as a &quot;defrocked priest&quot; - with all of what that was intended to imply. But the thread was mysteriously shut down when I lawfully reminded readers of Mel&#039;s well known behaviour at another blog. 

And that, folks, is why the thread was re-opened: to allow the anti-Catholic slander to continue. This blog is now officially an intellectual toilet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick gets his revenge for my earlier demolition of his Pius XII nonsense. Strangely, he allowed me to be described as a &#8220;defrocked priest&#8221; &#8211; with all of what that was intended to imply. But the thread was mysteriously shut down when I lawfully reminded readers of Mel&#8217;s well known behaviour at another blog. </p>
<p>And that, folks, is why the thread was re-opened: to allow the anti-Catholic slander to continue. This blog is now officially an intellectual toilet.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342504</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342504</guid>
		<description>Btw, I had not deleted any comment on the thread before now. I&#039;m not into micro-managing the squabbles of other people&#039;s children.  My own are enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Btw, I had not deleted any comment on the thread before now. I&#8217;m not into micro-managing the squabbles of other people&#8217;s children.  My own are enough.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342500</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342500</guid>
		<description>[Deleted as defamatory]

I re-opened the thread because it seemed harmless enough and some people seemed to be enjoying the sport of abusing each other. However if comments are defamatory they shouldn&#039;t be in the thread and will be removed.  

We&#039;ve had one threat to take matters further in this regard from someone who was hopping into CL. 

CL, tell me if you want any comments amended for the reason that they are defamatory, and don&#039;t defame people on the thread. 

And please don&#039;t abuse me or even argue with me as I can&#039;t be bothered with it and don&#039;t have time for it (and if I have to persevere commenting I won&#039;t bother but will re-close the thread).

Personally I&#039;d be interested in your responses to the various claims at 249 and 239, but it&#039;s a free country.

NG 



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Deleted as defamatory]</p>
<p>I re-opened the thread because it seemed harmless enough and some people seemed to be enjoying the sport of abusing each other. However if comments are defamatory they shouldn&#8217;t be in the thread and will be removed.  </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve had one threat to take matters further in this regard from someone who was hopping into CL. </p>
<p>CL, tell me if you want any comments amended for the reason that they are defamatory, and don&#8217;t defame people on the thread. </p>
<p>And please don&#8217;t abuse me or even argue with me as I can&#8217;t be bothered with it and don&#8217;t have time for it (and if I have to persevere commenting I won&#8217;t bother but will re-close the thread).</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d be interested in your responses to the various claims at 249 and 239, but it&#8217;s a free country.</p>
<p>NG </p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342498</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342498</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been asked by the duumvirate to reverse the closing of the thread.

This isn&#039;t an invitation to carte blanche, however. Please be civil and avoid any potentially defamatory remarks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been asked by the duumvirate to reverse the closing of the thread.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t an invitation to carte blanche, however. Please be civil and avoid any potentially defamatory remarks.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342495</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342495</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t watching this thread very closely, but it&#039;s clearly gotten totally out of hand. It doesn&#039;t meet our goal of civil discourse and is contributing nothing to the site, so I am closing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t watching this thread very closely, but it&#8217;s clearly gotten totally out of hand. It doesn&#8217;t meet our goal of civil discourse and is contributing nothing to the site, so I am closing it.</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342491</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342491</guid>
		<description>Jacques, since you are in the mood to delete comments how about deleting Currency Lad&#039;s #242, in which he involves my name in his child sex obsession. Currency Lad has now raised child sex on numerous occasions on this thread and I believe Nick may have deleted some of the previous comments. I&#039;ll take the matter further if you don&#039;t delete the comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacques, since you are in the mood to delete comments how about deleting Currency Lad&#8217;s #242, in which he involves my name in his child sex obsession. Currency Lad has now raised child sex on numerous occasions on this thread and I believe Nick may have deleted some of the previous comments. I&#8217;ll take the matter further if you don&#8217;t delete the comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342490</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342490</guid>
		<description>Is this a clubtroppo record length thread yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this a clubtroppo record length thread yet?</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342414</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342414</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No youre thinking that and using words like complimentarity to hide the fact.&lt;/i&gt;

Adrien&#039;s usual strategy when one of his howlers collapses: &lt;i&gt;I know you are but what I am?&lt;/i&gt; You&#039;re the one who argued (falsely) that Christians regard &quot;fecundity&quot; as the &lt;i&gt;sine qua non&lt;/i&gt; of a &#039;legitimate&#039; marriage. Um no, they don&#039;t. Earlier - to the probable horror of most homosexuals - you claimed marriage was necessary to &#039;legitimise&#039; gay relationships too. The complementarity of the sexes (more multi-faceted than you seem to realise) is a scientific fact, not - as you argued earlier - &quot;supernatural&quot; and &quot;imaginary&quot;. Not is it, as Mel amusingly insisted, a &quot;theological concept.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;The more one learns about these people the more horrified one becomes.&lt;/i&gt;

Does that mean you withdraw your insistence that homeless people be incinerated?

Ten days after Fred essentially conceded his original post was baloney, only the deadenders Mel and Adrien are trying to save face - Adrien by denouncing my &quot;prohibitions&quot; against gay &quot;marriage&quot; (yes folks, Obama, Rick Warren and I agree on this and together rule the world) and widely banned oddball Mel by linking Pius IX (?) to the American Civil War (?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No youre thinking that and using words like complimentarity to hide the fact.</i></p>
<p>Adrien&#8217;s usual strategy when one of his howlers collapses: <i>I know you are but what I am?</i> You&#8217;re the one who argued (falsely) that Christians regard &#8220;fecundity&#8221; as the <i>sine qua non</i> of a &#8216;legitimate&#8217; marriage. Um no, they don&#8217;t. Earlier &#8211; to the probable horror of most homosexuals &#8211; you claimed marriage was necessary to &#8216;legitimise&#8217; gay relationships too. The complementarity of the sexes (more multi-faceted than you seem to realise) is a scientific fact, not &#8211; as you argued earlier &#8211; &#8220;supernatural&#8221; and &#8220;imaginary&#8221;. Not is it, as Mel amusingly insisted, a &#8220;theological concept.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>The more one learns about these people the more horrified one becomes.</i></p>
<p>Does that mean you withdraw your insistence that homeless people be incinerated?</p>
<p>Ten days after Fred essentially conceded his original post was baloney, only the deadenders Mel and Adrien are trying to save face &#8211; Adrien by denouncing my &#8220;prohibitions&#8221; against gay &#8220;marriage&#8221; (yes folks, Obama, Rick Warren and I agree on this and together rule the world) and widely banned oddball Mel by linking Pius IX (?) to the American Civil War (?).</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342409</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342409</guid>
		<description>Good God. Pope Pius IX, whom CL refers to fondly and who was beatified by Pope John Paul II, was an accessory to the abduction of a six year old Jewish boy.

&quot;Bologna, 1858: A police squad, acting on the orders of the Inquisitor, invades the home of a Jewish merchant, Momolo Mortara, wrenches his crying six-year-old son from his arms, and rushes him off in a carriage bound for Rome. His mother is so distraught that she collapses and has to be taken to a neighbor&#039;s house, but her weeping can be heard across the city. With this terrifying scene--one that would haunt this family forever--David I. Kertzer begins his fascinating investigation of the dramatic kidnapping, and shows how this now obscure saga would eventually contribute to the collapse of the Church&#039;s temporal power in Italy.... Refusing to return the child to his family, Pope Pius IX began to regard the boy as his own child. &quot;

http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/book/export/html/24

The more one learns about these people the more horrified one becomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good God. Pope Pius IX, whom CL refers to fondly and who was beatified by Pope John Paul II, was an accessory to the abduction of a six year old Jewish boy.</p>
<p>&#8220;Bologna, 1858: A police squad, acting on the orders of the Inquisitor, invades the home of a Jewish merchant, Momolo Mortara, wrenches his crying six-year-old son from his arms, and rushes him off in a carriage bound for Rome. His mother is so distraught that she collapses and has to be taken to a neighbor&#8217;s house, but her weeping can be heard across the city. With this terrifying scene&#8211;one that would haunt this family forever&#8211;David I. Kertzer begins his fascinating investigation of the dramatic kidnapping, and shows how this now obscure saga would eventually contribute to the collapse of the Church&#8217;s temporal power in Italy&#8230;. Refusing to return the child to his family, Pope Pius IX began to regard the boy as his own child. &#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/book/export/html/24">http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/book/export/html/24</a></p>
<p>The more one learns about these people the more horrified one becomes.</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342403</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342403</guid>
		<description>I wonder how Catholic apologists manage to reconcile so-called natural law with the celibate priesthood. And how does that relate to the newly invented concept of complimentarity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how Catholic apologists manage to reconcile so-called natural law with the celibate priesthood. And how does that relate to the newly invented concept of complimentarity?</p>
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		<title>By: AdrienSword</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342394</link>
		<dc:creator>AdrienSword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342394</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;So youre saying the essence of womanhood is limited to child-bearing?&lt;/em&gt;

No &lt;em&gt;you&#039;re&lt;/em&gt; thinking that and using &#039;words&#039; like &#039;complimentarity&#039; to hide the fact. Essence of womanhood is an eau de toilette line by Coco Chanel of Paris, discontinued.

&lt;em&gt;Turnbull, like you, believes in gay marriage.&lt;/em&gt;

And if it weren&#039;t for that he&#039;d snap you up right. :)

Why doesn&#039;t Tony Abbott hire you then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>So youre saying the essence of womanhood is limited to child-bearing?</em></p>
<p>No <em>you&#8217;re</em> thinking that and using &#8216;words&#8217; like &#8216;complimentarity&#8217; to hide the fact. Essence of womanhood is an eau de toilette line by Coco Chanel of Paris, discontinued.</p>
<p><em>Turnbull, like you, believes in gay marriage.</em></p>
<p>And if it weren&#8217;t for that he&#8217;d snap you up right. :)</p>
<p>Why doesn&#8217;t Tony Abbott hire you then?</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342322</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342322</guid>
		<description>So you&#039;re saying the essence of womanhood is limited to child-bearing?

Advanced stuff, cro-magnon man.

&lt;i&gt;Im surprised Turnbull doesnt hire you.&lt;/i&gt;

Turnbull, like you, believes in gay &quot;marriage&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#8217;re saying the essence of womanhood is limited to child-bearing?</p>
<p>Advanced stuff, cro-magnon man.</p>
<p><i>Im surprised Turnbull doesnt hire you.</i></p>
<p>Turnbull, like you, believes in gay &#8220;marriage&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: AdrienSword</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342313</link>
		<dc:creator>AdrienSword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342313</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Fecundity is NOT required to legitimise marriage.&lt;/em&gt;

Really?

Oh good. That means your whole slew of Queensberrian rhetoric viz homosexual marriage and the lack of sprogs popped consequent of the resultant bonking will now cease and desist. 

So what other arguments did you have? Oh yeah: What that dude wears a funny dress and rules the last of the world&#039;s theocratic city-states guaraded by fellows in pantyhose with 16th century pikes has to say and also: penis goes in vagina. 

Good basis for public policy that. I&#039;m surprised Turnbull doesn&#039;t hire you. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Fecundity is NOT required to legitimise marriage.</em></p>
<p>Really?</p>
<p>Oh good. That means your whole slew of Queensberrian rhetoric viz homosexual marriage and the lack of sprogs popped consequent of the resultant bonking will now cease and desist. </p>
<p>So what other arguments did you have? Oh yeah: What that dude wears a funny dress and rules the last of the world&#8217;s theocratic city-states guaraded by fellows in pantyhose with 16th century pikes has to say and also: penis goes in vagina. </p>
<p>Good basis for public policy that. I&#8217;m surprised Turnbull doesn&#8217;t hire you. :)</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342299</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342299</guid>
		<description>Your case being that Pius IX caused the American Civil War and Hitler was involved somehow. There may or may not have been papal UFOs hovering above Appomattox.

We haven&#039;t heard something this rational from you since you called for the killing by incineration of homeless men.

Remember that, Herr Munn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your case being that Pius IX caused the American Civil War and Hitler was involved somehow. There may or may not have been papal UFOs hovering above Appomattox.</p>
<p>We haven&#8217;t heard something this rational from you since you called for the killing by incineration of homeless men.</p>
<p>Remember that, Herr Munn?</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342295</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342295</guid>
		<description>CL says:

&quot;Neither, Steve, sorry. As a professed homosexual who later claimed to be married with children (and who suspiciously removed pictures of Asian kids from your blog when people commented on how frightened they looked - and how bald you were), your comments on just about everything are to be regarded with the utmost contempt.&quot;

I rest my case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CL says:</p>
<p>&#8220;Neither, Steve, sorry. As a professed homosexual who later claimed to be married with children (and who suspiciously removed pictures of Asian kids from your blog when people commented on how frightened they looked &#8211; and how bald you were), your comments on just about everything are to be regarded with the utmost contempt.&#8221;</p>
<p>I rest my case.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342284</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342284</guid>
		<description>Fecundity is NOT required to &quot;legitimise marriage.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fecundity is NOT required to &#8220;legitimise marriage.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342176</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342176</guid>
		<description>&quot;So youll have to develop secular objections (or at least raise the mass howl of bigotry).&quot;

Adrien, your dealing with someone who invented a new word- &quot;complimentarity&quot; - to support his homophobia. The intellectual abilities necessary to construct a secular rationale for Pope Benny&#039;s position is well beyond the reach of Our Lady of Incontinent Platitudes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So youll have to develop secular objections (or at least raise the mass howl of bigotry).&#8221;</p>
<p>Adrien, your dealing with someone who invented a new word- &#8220;complimentarity&#8221; &#8211; to support his homophobia. The intellectual abilities necessary to construct a secular rationale for Pope Benny&#8217;s position is well beyond the reach of Our Lady of Incontinent Platitudes.</p>
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		<title>By: AdrienSword</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342171</link>
		<dc:creator>AdrienSword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342171</guid>
		<description>Currency Lad - I realize Catholic esoterica is your intellectual comfort zone and I&#039;d never presume to instruct you on matters pertinent to it (unless I was really sure of myself). 
.
But on the matter of homosexual marriage you&#039;re making the assumption that fecundity is required to legitimize marriage. It isn&#039;t, necessarily. Under the principles of liberal utilitarianism it&#039;s a matter of contract and the principle underlying a contract is that parties may enter into one in the absence of a good public policy reason for them not to.
.
That the state requires children is not a good reason in my opinion.
.
The reason why is simply that most people are heterosexual and desire children and that is enough.  The species will continue whether or no we as a society recognize that a small portion of us are attracted exclusively to the same sex and that as human beings they have a right to pursue happiness as the rest of us do. Another reason is that it is perfectly possible for homosexual couples to adopt and raise children and there&#039;s no evidence that it does the kids harm. In the case of lesbians there&#039;s little the state can do to prevent one of them being a mother in any event. At least not without anti-liberal intervention.
.
So to prevent the (in this country) inevitable legitimization of gay marriage you have to come up with a better objection than it has always been thus and the Church says so. 
.
Under capitalist democracy religion is optional and change is the rule; what&#039;s past isn&#039;t even necessarily prologue. So you&#039;ll have to develop secular objections (or at least raise the mass howl of bigotry).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Currency Lad &#8211; I realize Catholic esoterica is your intellectual comfort zone and I&#8217;d never presume to instruct you on matters pertinent to it (unless I was really sure of myself).<br />
.<br />
But on the matter of homosexual marriage you&#8217;re making the assumption that fecundity is required to legitimize marriage. It isn&#8217;t, necessarily. Under the principles of liberal utilitarianism it&#8217;s a matter of contract and the principle underlying a contract is that parties may enter into one in the absence of a good public policy reason for them not to.<br />
.<br />
That the state requires children is not a good reason in my opinion.<br />
.<br />
The reason why is simply that most people are heterosexual and desire children and that is enough.  The species will continue whether or no we as a society recognize that a small portion of us are attracted exclusively to the same sex and that as human beings they have a right to pursue happiness as the rest of us do. Another reason is that it is perfectly possible for homosexual couples to adopt and raise children and there&#8217;s no evidence that it does the kids harm. In the case of lesbians there&#8217;s little the state can do to prevent one of them being a mother in any event. At least not without anti-liberal intervention.<br />
.<br />
So to prevent the (in this country) inevitable legitimization of gay marriage you have to come up with a better objection than it has always been thus and the Church says so.<br />
.<br />
Under capitalist democracy religion is optional and change is the rule; what&#8217;s past isn&#8217;t even necessarily prologue. So you&#8217;ll have to develop secular objections (or at least raise the mass howl of bigotry).</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342114</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342114</guid>
		<description>CL says:

&quot;It isnt civility to run your usual anti-Catholic bullshit stories while pretending to be a polite, disinterested contributor. And I suggest you at least look up Pio Nonos life and times before you so foolishly dismiss his accomplishments.&quot;

Thanks for the advice,  CL. Pio Nono is of course Pope Pius IX, who CL lauds as a great Catholic hero in spite of his disgusting views on slavery, women, religious freedom and practically everything else.  Here&#039;s CL&#039;s favourite Pope giving us the good word on Jews:

&quot;Jews had been children in the House of God, [but] owing to their obstinacy and their failure to believe, they have become dogs ... We have today in Rome unfortunately too many of these dogs, and we hear them barking in all the streets, and going around molesting people everywhere.&quot;

Pope Pius IX was also responsible for the publication of journals that ran the type of anti- semitic campaigns later employed by Hitler:

&quot;The Jews -- eternal insolent children, obstinate, dirty, thieves, liars, ignoramuses, pests and the scourge of those near and far . . . managed to lay their hands on . . . all public wealth . . . and virtually alone they took control not only of all the money . . . but of the law itself in those countries where they have been allowed to hold public offices . . . [yet they complain] at the first shout by anyone who dares raise his voice against this barbarian invasion by an enemy race, hostile to Christianity and to society in general.&#039;&#039;

Naturally enough, Pope Pius IX was beatified by the John Paul II in 2000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CL says:</p>
<p>&#8220;It isnt civility to run your usual anti-Catholic bullshit stories while pretending to be a polite, disinterested contributor. And I suggest you at least look up Pio Nonos life and times before you so foolishly dismiss his accomplishments.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice,  CL. Pio Nono is of course Pope Pius IX, who CL lauds as a great Catholic hero in spite of his disgusting views on slavery, women, religious freedom and practically everything else.  Here&#8217;s CL&#8217;s favourite Pope giving us the good word on Jews:</p>
<p>&#8220;Jews had been children in the House of God, [but] owing to their obstinacy and their failure to believe, they have become dogs &#8230; We have today in Rome unfortunately too many of these dogs, and we hear them barking in all the streets, and going around molesting people everywhere.&#8221;</p>
<p>Pope Pius IX was also responsible for the publication of journals that ran the type of anti- semitic campaigns later employed by Hitler:</p>
<p>&#8220;The Jews &#8212; eternal insolent children, obstinate, dirty, thieves, liars, ignoramuses, pests and the scourge of those near and far . . . managed to lay their hands on . . . all public wealth . . . and virtually alone they took control not only of all the money . . . but of the law itself in those countries where they have been allowed to hold public offices . . . [yet they complain] at the first shout by anyone who dares raise his voice against this barbarian invasion by an enemy race, hostile to Christianity and to society in general.&#8221;</p>
<p>Naturally enough, Pope Pius IX was beatified by the John Paul II in 2000.</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342112</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342112</guid>
		<description>&quot;How many homosexual couples sexually generated their own children throughout human history and prehistory?

Answer: 0.&quot;

[defamatory material deleted]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How many homosexual couples sexually generated their own children throughout human history and prehistory?</p>
<p>Answer: 0.&#8221;</p>
<p>[defamatory material deleted]</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342106</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342106</guid>
		<description>Global warming pontiff, His Holeyness &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24880012-12377,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;James Hansen&lt;/a&gt;, claims Australia is destroying all life on planet earth!!

This claim will make lefties angry.

Oh, hang on. No it won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Global warming pontiff, His Holeyness <a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24880012-12377,00.html">James Hansen</a>, claims Australia is destroying all life on planet earth!!</p>
<p>This claim will make lefties angry.</p>
<p>Oh, hang on. No it won&#8217;t.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AdrienSword</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342077</link>
		<dc:creator>AdrienSword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342077</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Is Harry Potter a greater intrinsic moral evil than homosexuality?&lt;/em&gt;

Bad books are the only intrinsic moral evil. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Is Harry Potter a greater intrinsic moral evil than homosexuality?</em></p>
<p>Bad books are the only intrinsic moral evil. :)</p>
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		<title>By: AdrienSword</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-342075</link>
		<dc:creator>AdrienSword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-342075</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Was the soul created when humans came along? Or did the soul inhabit an astral plane until homo sapiens evolved? Or was the soul ever-present, right back to the first living things, awaiting a vessel that could give it full expression?&lt;/em&gt;

And also why are there so many more souls around now. Why is their growth directly proportional to that of human animal individuals? Is there a factory that makes &#039;em? Or are there a limited number of souls hence most people nowadays don;t have them? I think this a viable hypotheses.

How shall we test it? I know. Let&#039;s use the tried and true methods of Holy Mother Church: exorcise some demons, quote a lot of Latin stuff, swing a bloody great metal pot stuffed with burning incense about, set a few people on fire - stuff like that. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Was the soul created when humans came along? Or did the soul inhabit an astral plane until homo sapiens evolved? Or was the soul ever-present, right back to the first living things, awaiting a vessel that could give it full expression?</em></p>
<p>And also why are there so many more souls around now. Why is their growth directly proportional to that of human animal individuals? Is there a factory that makes &#8216;em? Or are there a limited number of souls hence most people nowadays don;t have them? I think this a viable hypotheses.</p>
<p>How shall we test it? I know. Let&#8217;s use the tried and true methods of Holy Mother Church: exorcise some demons, quote a lot of Latin stuff, swing a bloody great metal pot stuffed with burning incense about, set a few people on fire &#8211; stuff like that. :)</p>
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		<title>By: melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/12/24/pope-benedict-message/#comment-341919</link>
		<dc:creator>melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 13:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=6840#comment-341919</guid>
		<description>Is Harry Potter a greater intrinsic moral evil than homosexuality? Hopefully Pope Benny XVI will help clarify this perplexing theological issue at some point during his reign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Harry Potter a greater intrinsic moral evil than homosexuality? Hopefully Pope Benny XVI will help clarify this perplexing theological issue at some point during his reign.</p>
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