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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Well, you&#8217;ve got me there!&#8217;</title>
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		<title>By: Tel_</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358211</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel_</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 14:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358211</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
??? The computer is not inventory, is this a second thread of spot the non-sequitur?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Possibly you would be happier if I said, &quot;Accounting never has solved the problem of asset valuation.&quot;

So write a list of assets and what do you have? An inventory... bah!

The computer can be resold if necessary, probably not for a profit but you never know. I&#039;m well aware that most accountants would suffer head explosion if you try to call the same object both running plant and inventory for resale, but I see that as a design limitation in accountant&#039;s heads, not my problem.

I&#039;m trying to point out that a lot of our dearly held beliefs about expenditure and value are largely arbitrary categories that suit some people some of the time. If you purchase any object for any reason, obviously its value to you must be higher than the listed price, so value is subjective, so the distinction between consumption, saving and investment is also highly subjective. We can get a better idea AFTER the fact, based on a full life-history of the item, but anyone can be smart in hindsight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
??? The computer is not inventory, is this a second thread of spot the non-sequitur?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Possibly you would be happier if I said, &#8220;Accounting never has solved the problem of asset valuation.&#8221;</p>
<p>So write a list of assets and what do you have? An inventory&#8230; bah!</p>
<p>The computer can be resold if necessary, probably not for a profit but you never know. I&#8217;m well aware that most accountants would suffer head explosion if you try to call the same object both running plant and inventory for resale, but I see that as a design limitation in accountant&#8217;s heads, not my problem.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to point out that a lot of our dearly held beliefs about expenditure and value are largely arbitrary categories that suit some people some of the time. If you purchase any object for any reason, obviously its value to you must be higher than the listed price, so value is subjective, so the distinction between consumption, saving and investment is also highly subjective. We can get a better idea AFTER the fact, based on a full life-history of the item, but anyone can be smart in hindsight.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358208</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 06:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358208</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Tel was making a separate point about inventories.

As for the other point: if the internet connection increases his kids&#039; future earning capacity, it&#039;s investment; if it&#039;s accompanied by an offsetting reduction in other consumption, it&#039;s also saving; and if it&#039;s fun then it&#039;s simultaneously consumption and investment. The national accounts don&#039;t permit anything to be both, but since the macroeconomic discourse is fixated on GDP, investment and growth, rather than on consumption, no one complains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Tel was making a separate point about inventories.</p>
<p>As for the other point: if the internet connection increases his kids&#8217; future earning capacity, it&#8217;s investment; if it&#8217;s accompanied by an offsetting reduction in other consumption, it&#8217;s also saving; and if it&#8217;s fun then it&#8217;s simultaneously consumption and investment. The national accounts don&#8217;t permit anything to be both, but since the macroeconomic discourse is fixated on GDP, investment and growth, rather than on consumption, no one complains.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358206</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358206</guid>
		<description>??? The computer is not inventory, is this a second thread of spot the non-sequitur?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>??? The computer is not inventory, is this a second thread of spot the non-sequitur?</p>
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		<title>By: Tel_</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358202</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel_</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 15:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358202</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Also, even though I love rationality, and I resent the rigidity of our super at least a little bit, the assumption is not intuitively wrong. Is there any evidence of people behaving rationally to increase savings to match smaller super? Should we expect Italians and French to be increasing their savings as the probability that they wont get all the super they expect increases? 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Suppose I take the money that would have gone to super and spend it on a new computer and faster Internet connection for my kids. Is that saving for the future, or consumption, or infrastructure spending?

Accounting never has solved the problem of inventory valuation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Also, even though I love rationality, and I resent the rigidity of our super at least a little bit, the assumption is not intuitively wrong. Is there any evidence of people behaving rationally to increase savings to match smaller super? Should we expect Italians and French to be increasing their savings as the probability that they wont get all the super they expect increases?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Suppose I take the money that would have gone to super and spend it on a new computer and faster Internet connection for my kids. Is that saving for the future, or consumption, or infrastructure spending?</p>
<p>Accounting never has solved the problem of inventory valuation.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358197</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 03:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358197</guid>
		<description>Patrick, the point becomes clearer when you remember that it&#039;s &lt;b&gt;net&lt;/b&gt; saving that matters.  Super puts more money on the assets side of the ledger, but precisely for that reason a rational person would gear more with bigger debt.

Now people may indeed be myopic, but I want evidence of that.  And that young people (quite rationally - consumption gives you more utility when young) have a high personal discount rate, or that old people ex post wish they&#039;d saved more (they really wish they&#039;d consumed as much and still saved - ie they&#039;d had more income), is not evidence of myopia.

Voluntary retirement savings are notoriously low in Northern Europe, precisely because of their earnings-related pension schemes.  A great deal of their saving appears to take place &lt;b&gt;after&lt;/b&gt; retirement - which is the exact reverse of what compulsory super aims to achieve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick, the point becomes clearer when you remember that it&#8217;s <b>net</b> saving that matters.  Super puts more money on the assets side of the ledger, but precisely for that reason a rational person would gear more with bigger debt.</p>
<p>Now people may indeed be myopic, but I want evidence of that.  And that young people (quite rationally &#8211; consumption gives you more utility when young) have a high personal discount rate, or that old people ex post wish they&#8217;d saved more (they really wish they&#8217;d consumed as much and still saved &#8211; ie they&#8217;d had more income), is not evidence of myopia.</p>
<p>Voluntary retirement savings are notoriously low in Northern Europe, precisely because of their earnings-related pension schemes.  A great deal of their saving appears to take place <b>after</b> retirement &#8211; which is the exact reverse of what compulsory super aims to achieve.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358196</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 03:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358196</guid>
		<description>On Connolly and Kohler, I think they didn&#039;t capture the major form of offset - longer and bigger mortgages.  A lot of super saving has popped up as higher land prices - an unproductive rent, and distributionally undesirable as well.

So yes, I reckon its an understatement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Connolly and Kohler, I think they didn&#8217;t capture the major form of offset &#8211; longer and bigger mortgages.  A lot of super saving has popped up as higher land prices &#8211; an unproductive rent, and distributionally undesirable as well.</p>
<p>So yes, I reckon its an understatement.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358192</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 15:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358192</guid>
		<description>I am intrigued, James, what would be a first-best policy? 

Also, even though I love rationality, and I resent the rigidity of our super at least a little bit, the assumption is not intuitively wrong. Is there any evidence of people behaving rationally to increase savings to match smaller super? Should we expect Italians and French to be increasing their savings as the probability that they won&#039;t get all the super they expect increases? 

Are low-super countries high non-super savers? Or is it actually the inverse - high super countries actually those that are high savers anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am intrigued, James, what would be a first-best policy? </p>
<p>Also, even though I love rationality, and I resent the rigidity of our super at least a little bit, the assumption is not intuitively wrong. Is there any evidence of people behaving rationally to increase savings to match smaller super? Should we expect Italians and French to be increasing their savings as the probability that they won&#8217;t get all the super they expect increases? </p>
<p>Are low-super countries high non-super savers? Or is it actually the inverse &#8211; high super countries actually those that are high savers anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358189</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 11:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358189</guid>
		<description>DD:

In fact the policy assumes irrationality twice over, doesn&#039;t it? First that people are too myopic in deciding how much to save in the first place, and second that they&#039;ll continue their voluntary savings. It&#039;s a kind of second-best policy, countering one irrationality with another to produce a rational outcome.

Regarding the empirical evidence, are you inclined to completely dismiss Connolly and Kohler&#039;s estimate of 38 percent as the &#039;offset coefficient&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DD:</p>
<p>In fact the policy assumes irrationality twice over, doesn&#8217;t it? First that people are too myopic in deciding how much to save in the first place, and second that they&#8217;ll continue their voluntary savings. It&#8217;s a kind of second-best policy, countering one irrationality with another to produce a rational outcome.</p>
<p>Regarding the empirical evidence, are you inclined to completely dismiss Connolly and Kohler&#8217;s estimate of 38 percent as the &#8216;offset coefficient&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358186</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 04:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358186</guid>
		<description>That was a dumb question by David - that people are sometimes irrational does not mean that they are always irrational.  And if you think about it, the claim that super substantially increases national saving does indeed depend on systematic irrationality by the populace.  Does no-one else think that a fragile basis on which to base a policy of this magnitude and duration?

Anyway, you just have to look at the empirics.  Our household savings rate has fallen all through the period in which super has operated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a dumb question by David &#8211; that people are sometimes irrational does not mean that they are always irrational.  And if you think about it, the claim that super substantially increases national saving does indeed depend on systematic irrationality by the populace.  Does no-one else think that a fragile basis on which to base a policy of this magnitude and duration?</p>
<p>Anyway, you just have to look at the empirics.  Our household savings rate has fallen all through the period in which super has operated.</p>
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		<title>By: billie</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/05/28/well-youve-got-me-there/#comment-358184</link>
		<dc:creator>billie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 01:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8501#comment-358184</guid>
		<description>Can I complain about the inefficiencies and inequalities of our employer based superannuation system as opposed to a centralised aged insurance system like UK or Canada.  
It is a duplication of effort to administer 500,000 superannuation funds at a minimum cost of $3000 per annum per fund.  Each employer has a fund and high wealth individuals run their own fund and some people are members of multiple funds.
With the current number of funds its difficult to guarantee the competence and honesty of the trustees.  How many factory workers have discovered the boss has stolen their savings
With ineffective regulation there are a lot of sharp financial planners preying on 60 year olds ready to fleece they of their life times savings
Then of course tax regulations have made superannuation an effective vehicle to transfer intergenerational wealth.
Of course radical changes to the superannuation system would cause massive unemployment in the accounting and finance sectors.  And the insurance companies would have a lean time too</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I complain about the inefficiencies and inequalities of our employer based superannuation system as opposed to a centralised aged insurance system like UK or Canada.<br />
It is a duplication of effort to administer 500,000 superannuation funds at a minimum cost of $3000 per annum per fund.  Each employer has a fund and high wealth individuals run their own fund and some people are members of multiple funds.<br />
With the current number of funds its difficult to guarantee the competence and honesty of the trustees.  How many factory workers have discovered the boss has stolen their savings<br />
With ineffective regulation there are a lot of sharp financial planners preying on 60 year olds ready to fleece they of their life times savings<br />
Then of course tax regulations have made superannuation an effective vehicle to transfer intergenerational wealth.<br />
Of course radical changes to the superannuation system would cause massive unemployment in the accounting and finance sectors.  And the insurance companies would have a lean time too</p>
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