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	<title>Comments on: Supersonic flight</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358648</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358648</guid>
		<description>Don, I assume that Nicholas&#039; reference to the technology was to the supersonic technology. Presumably this was pretty locked-down by the time of the F-111 and if not, then is by now!

Interesting links, too. Neither has reached production or even certification yet, but interestingly the QSST claims to be able to travel supersonically in America whilst complying with applicable US laws - ie without sonic booms. 

Neither would appear able to fly NY-London, or at least not supersonically. This would seem to be a key ingredident in getting these things to take off (haha).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, I assume that Nicholas&#8217; reference to the technology was to the supersonic technology. Presumably this was pretty locked-down by the time of the F-111 and if not, then is by now!</p>
<p>Interesting links, too. Neither has reached production or even certification yet, but interestingly the QSST claims to be able to travel supersonically in America whilst complying with applicable US laws &#8211; ie without sonic booms. </p>
<p>Neither would appear able to fly NY-London, or at least not supersonically. This would seem to be a key ingredident in getting these things to take off (haha).</p>
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		<title>By: SJ</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358643</link>
		<dc:creator>SJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358643</guid>
		<description>Heh. Comment in moderation. If someone would care to help out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. Comment in moderation. If someone would care to help out?</p>
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		<title>By: SJ</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358641</link>
		<dc:creator>SJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358641</guid>
		<description>A couple of points:

Firstly, the F-111 has an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ejectionsite.com/f111dir/dpool.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ejectable crew capsule&lt;/a&gt; that holds two people. It&#039;s not possible to make this any bigger. There&#039;s no other space inside the fuselage capable of holding passengers, so you&#039;re limited to a pilot and one passenger. This makes the proposition very expensive per head.

Secondly, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;F-111&lt;/a&gt; has a subsonic range of almost 7000 km, but a supersonic range of less than 2500 km. It&#039;s about 5600 km from London to New York, so it couldn&#039;t make it that far supersonically. On a shorter trip, say 2000 km, it&#039;s questionable whether the shorter flying time is worth it. Most of your time is spent getting to the airport, hanging about on the runway, waiting for clearance to land, etc. Shortening the in-flight time helps, but only makes economic sense if the opportunity cost of your time is in the millions of dollars per hour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of points:</p>
<p>Firstly, the F-111 has an <a href="http://www.ejectionsite.com/f111dir/dpool.jpg">ejectable crew capsule</a> that holds two people. It&#8217;s not possible to make this any bigger. There&#8217;s no other space inside the fuselage capable of holding passengers, so you&#8217;re limited to a pilot and one passenger. This makes the proposition very expensive per head.</p>
<p>Secondly, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111">F-111</a> has a subsonic range of almost 7000 km, but a supersonic range of less than 2500 km. It&#8217;s about 5600 km from London to New York, so it couldn&#8217;t make it that far supersonically. On a shorter trip, say 2000 km, it&#8217;s questionable whether the shorter flying time is worth it. Most of your time is spent getting to the airport, hanging about on the runway, waiting for clearance to land, etc. Shortening the in-flight time helps, but only makes economic sense if the opportunity cost of your time is in the millions of dollars per hour.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Arthur</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358640</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358640</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t resist googling this. It&#039;s a fun question.

Apparently there are plans for at least two supersonic business jets - the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.saiqsst.com/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Quiet Supersonic Transport&lt;/a&gt; (QSST)and the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aerioncorp.com/home&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Aerion Supersonic Business Jet&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s right to say that &quot;the technology was already locked down with supersonic bombers like the F111&quot;. The F111 was designed for a specific role -- part of which involved flying very close to the ground. And even though it&#039;s a bomber, it doesn&#039;t have much internal space. Check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.f-111.net/articles/AIR_International/cutaway.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this diagram&lt;/a&gt; and see if you can find a place for a passenger compartment. There is an internal weapons bay but it&#039;s small (two bombs). Most of carrying capacity comes from the 8 pylons on the wings. 

Of course this raises the possibility of loading passengers into individual cylinders and mounting them under the wings. Perhaps you could avoid delays due to crowded airports by simply dropping the cylinders near the passenger&#039;s destination (using a parachute of course). I&#039;m not sure how to solve the toilet problem but I assume &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=38098&amp;in_page_id=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the technology&lt;/a&gt; was locked down during the space program.

A supersonic business jet would be designed around a very different set of constraints -- as DD says, it would need to be quiet.

As for &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.l39.com/docs/files/AC_20-96.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;refitting an ex-military aircraft&lt;/a&gt; ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t resist googling this. It&#8217;s a fun question.</p>
<p>Apparently there are plans for at least two supersonic business jets &#8211; the <a href="http://www.saiqsst.com/index.html">Quiet Supersonic Transport</a> (QSST)and the <a href="http://www.aerioncorp.com/home">Aerion Supersonic Business Jet</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s right to say that &#8220;the technology was already locked down with supersonic bombers like the F111&#8243;. The F111 was designed for a specific role &#8212; part of which involved flying very close to the ground. And even though it&#8217;s a bomber, it doesn&#8217;t have much internal space. Check out <a href="http://www.f-111.net/articles/AIR_International/cutaway.jpg">this diagram</a> and see if you can find a place for a passenger compartment. There is an internal weapons bay but it&#8217;s small (two bombs). Most of carrying capacity comes from the 8 pylons on the wings. </p>
<p>Of course this raises the possibility of loading passengers into individual cylinders and mounting them under the wings. Perhaps you could avoid delays due to crowded airports by simply dropping the cylinders near the passenger&#8217;s destination (using a parachute of course). I&#8217;m not sure how to solve the toilet problem but I assume <a href="http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=38098&#038;in_page_id=2">the technology</a> was locked down during the space program.</p>
<p>A supersonic business jet would be designed around a very different set of constraints &#8212; as DD says, it would need to be quiet.</p>
<p>As for <a href="http://www.l39.com/docs/files/AC_20-96.pdf">refitting an ex-military aircraft</a> &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358637</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358637</guid>
		<description>Youngsters these days.  Really!

I think I could still use a slide rule (but I&#039;d check with a calculator!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Youngsters these days.  Really!</p>
<p>I think I could still use a slide rule (but I&#8217;d check with a calculator!)</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358636</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358636</guid>
		<description>I believe it would be basically impossible to refit a military plane with any degree of &#039;executive jet&#039; comfort - they generally have &lt;em&gt;very &lt;/em&gt;thin fuselages, for obvious reasons.

Also, can you imagine that the plane pictured was designed with a slide rule - and I don&#039;t even know how to use one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe it would be basically impossible to refit a military plane with any degree of &#8216;executive jet&#8217; comfort &#8211; they generally have <em>very </em>thin fuselages, for obvious reasons.</p>
<p>Also, can you imagine that the plane pictured was designed with a slide rule &#8211; and I don&#8217;t even know how to use one!</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358632</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358632</guid>
		<description>James,

This is a serious blog.  Jokes will not be tolerated. 

DD, 

I wonder if you could do the market research with a refitted F111 or whatever - with say 6 seats?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>This is a serious blog.  Jokes will not be tolerated. </p>
<p>DD, </p>
<p>I wonder if you could do the market research with a refitted F111 or whatever &#8211; with say 6 seats?</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358631</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358631</guid>
		<description>If they could only chop off that 0.4 seconds, I think enough people would be ready to pay the price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they could only chop off that 0.4 seconds, I think enough people would be ready to pay the price.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358629</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358629</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve often wondered this.  I know Lear designed one in the 1980s but never built it.  But it&#039;s what Jacques said - plus the fact that most developed countires have a similar ban.  Also landing and takeoff noise was a problem.

There may be more possibility now with new airframe designs that greatly reduce sonic booms.  But it would be one helluva gamble to pour the billions in on the chance that the authorities would then relax the bans.

Still, I&#039;ve always thought there was a market for a very small (say 20 seat), very expensive transoceanic airliner.  But testing if that market exists would also be a really risky investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve often wondered this.  I know Lear designed one in the 1980s but never built it.  But it&#8217;s what Jacques said &#8211; plus the fact that most developed countires have a similar ban.  Also landing and takeoff noise was a problem.</p>
<p>There may be more possibility now with new airframe designs that greatly reduce sonic booms.  But it would be one helluva gamble to pour the billions in on the chance that the authorities would then relax the bans.</p>
<p>Still, I&#8217;ve always thought there was a market for a very small (say 20 seat), very expensive transoceanic airliner.  But testing if that market exists would also be a really risky investment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2009/06/28/supersonic-flight/#comment-358623</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=8862#comment-358623</guid>
		<description>Simple. The FAA in the US forbids supersonic flight over the continental USA except in military airspace. That kills half to two-thirds your already very niche market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simple. The FAA in the US forbids supersonic flight over the continental USA except in military airspace. That kills half to two-thirds your already very niche market.</p>
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