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	<title>Comments on: Social engineering with Tony</title>
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		<title>By: James Rice</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362789</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362789</guid>
		<description>As to the impact of policy on fertility, is it true that demographers are not very optimistic about the degree to which policy can increase fertility? In any case, this isn&#039;t the position of &lt;a href=&quot;http://adsri.anu.edu.au/people/peterm.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peter McDonald&lt;/a&gt;, the Director of the Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute at the ANU and the current President of the International Union for the Scientific Study of Population (see some of the articles mentioned on his webpage).

Sweden and the Scandinavian countries in general are typically offered as good examples of how policy might promote fertility. Here are the countries of the OECD ranked by total fertility rate (the data come from the website Paul linked to earlier).

High fertility:

Mexico: 2.34
Turkey: 2.21
New Zealand: 2.1
United States: 2.05
France: 1.98
Iceland: 1.9
Ireland: 1.85
Australia: 1.78
Luxembourg: 1.78
Norway: 1.78
Denmark: 1.74
Finland: 1.73
Sweden: 1.67
Netherlands: 1.66
United Kingdom: 1.66
Belgium: 1.65
Canada: 1.58

Low fertility:

Portugal: 1.49
Switzerland: 1.45
Germany: 1.41
Austria: 1.39
Greece: 1.37
Hungary: 1.35
Slovakia: 1.35
Italy: 1.31
Spain: 1.31
Poland: 1.28
Czech Republic: 1.24
Japan: 1.21
South Korea: 1.21

Within the OECD, the Scandinavian countries tend to have relatively high levels of fertility (1.67 to 1.9), while relatively low levels of fertility are found in the Continental European countries (excluding France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Belgium; 1.24 to 1.49) and the East Asian countries (1.21). This pattern generally supports the view that policy influences fertility, given the policy differences between these countries.

The Anglophone countries also tend to have relatively high levels of fertility - which indeed is a bit of a mystery in terms of the policy-fertility nexus! I&#039;m no expert in this area, but at least one possible explanation I&#039;ve read argues that private child care is more affordable in the Anglophone countries than in the other countries. The reason offered for this relates to the relatively high levels of wage and income inequality that are found in the Anglophone countries. As the argument goes, these relatively high levels of inequality mean that, relative to average incomes, the wages of low-wage workers are especially low in the Anglophone countries. Since child care workers are low-wage workers, this translates into private child care being more affordable in the Anglophone countries. I&#039;m not sure how much evidence can actually be found to support this argument, though, and I&#039;m sure other factors are at work. Cultural factors may also be important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to the impact of policy on fertility, is it true that demographers are not very optimistic about the degree to which policy can increase fertility? In any case, this isn&#8217;t the position of <a href="http://adsri.anu.edu.au/people/peterm.php">Peter McDonald</a>, the Director of the Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute at the ANU and the current President of the International Union for the Scientific Study of Population (see some of the articles mentioned on his webpage).</p>
<p>Sweden and the Scandinavian countries in general are typically offered as good examples of how policy might promote fertility. Here are the countries of the OECD ranked by total fertility rate (the data come from the website Paul linked to earlier).</p>
<p>High fertility:</p>
<p>Mexico: 2.34<br />
Turkey: 2.21<br />
New Zealand: 2.1<br />
United States: 2.05<br />
France: 1.98<br />
Iceland: 1.9<br />
Ireland: 1.85<br />
Australia: 1.78<br />
Luxembourg: 1.78<br />
Norway: 1.78<br />
Denmark: 1.74<br />
Finland: 1.73<br />
Sweden: 1.67<br />
Netherlands: 1.66<br />
United Kingdom: 1.66<br />
Belgium: 1.65<br />
Canada: 1.58</p>
<p>Low fertility:</p>
<p>Portugal: 1.49<br />
Switzerland: 1.45<br />
Germany: 1.41<br />
Austria: 1.39<br />
Greece: 1.37<br />
Hungary: 1.35<br />
Slovakia: 1.35<br />
Italy: 1.31<br />
Spain: 1.31<br />
Poland: 1.28<br />
Czech Republic: 1.24<br />
Japan: 1.21<br />
South Korea: 1.21</p>
<p>Within the OECD, the Scandinavian countries tend to have relatively high levels of fertility (1.67 to 1.9), while relatively low levels of fertility are found in the Continental European countries (excluding France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Belgium; 1.24 to 1.49) and the East Asian countries (1.21). This pattern generally supports the view that policy influences fertility, given the policy differences between these countries.</p>
<p>The Anglophone countries also tend to have relatively high levels of fertility &#8211; which indeed is a bit of a mystery in terms of the policy-fertility nexus! I&#8217;m no expert in this area, but at least one possible explanation I&#8217;ve read argues that private child care is more affordable in the Anglophone countries than in the other countries. The reason offered for this relates to the relatively high levels of wage and income inequality that are found in the Anglophone countries. As the argument goes, these relatively high levels of inequality mean that, relative to average incomes, the wages of low-wage workers are especially low in the Anglophone countries. Since child care workers are low-wage workers, this translates into private child care being more affordable in the Anglophone countries. I&#8217;m not sure how much evidence can actually be found to support this argument, though, and I&#8217;m sure other factors are at work. Cultural factors may also be important.</p>
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		<title>By: James Rice</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362788</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362788</guid>
		<description>With an earnings-related paid parental leave scheme - in comparison to a flat-rate paid parental leave scheme or any kind of paid leave scheme restricted to mothers - in couples in which the father earns more than the mother there will be more of an economic incentive for the father to stay at home to take care of the nipper. Perhaps this is the point Magda is making.

So, an earnings-related scheme is more likely than a flat-rate scheme to engineer a reallocation within the gendered division of household labour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With an earnings-related paid parental leave scheme &#8211; in comparison to a flat-rate paid parental leave scheme or any kind of paid leave scheme restricted to mothers &#8211; in couples in which the father earns more than the mother there will be more of an economic incentive for the father to stay at home to take care of the nipper. Perhaps this is the point Magda is making.</p>
<p>So, an earnings-related scheme is more likely than a flat-rate scheme to engineer a reallocation within the gendered division of household labour.</p>
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		<title>By: Age</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362787</link>
		<dc:creator>Age</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362787</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the last sentence is meant as a general endorsement kf the principle that where the benefits are very hard to quantify, we should eschew government action?

Or perhaps not just &#039;governmen5 action&#039; but any change?;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the last sentence is meant as a general endorsement kf the principle that where the benefits are very hard to quantify, we should eschew government action?</p>
<p>Or perhaps not just &#39;governmen5 action&#39; but any change?;</p>
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		<title>By: TimP</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362784</link>
		<dc:creator>TimP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362784</guid>
		<description>@James;

I think what Magda was suggesting is that in most households men earn the higher income, and that if the paid leave is offered to the &quot;primary caregiver&quot; rather than the mother, the man will more likely become the primary caregiver.

I&#039;m inclined to think that we probably would see a slight (possibly not statistically significant) increase in the number of men who choose to be the primary caregiver during the first few months of childhood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@James;</p>
<p>I think what Magda was suggesting is that in most households men earn the higher income, and that if the paid leave is offered to the &#8220;primary caregiver&#8221; rather than the mother, the man will more likely become the primary caregiver.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m inclined to think that we probably would see a slight (possibly not statistically significant) increase in the number of men who choose to be the primary caregiver during the first few months of childhood.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362777</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 01:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362777</guid>
		<description>&quot;Andrew: “‘respectable’ lower middle and working classes” = ‘aspirationals’?&quot;

James - Not necessarily. Ambition is not required to be respectable; indeed grasping for wealth may undermine respectability. Respectability is about personal behaviour - having a job, behaving in a civil manner, bringing up your kids properly, contributing to the community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Andrew: “‘respectable’ lower middle and working classes” = ‘aspirationals’?&#8221;</p>
<p>James &#8211; Not necessarily. Ambition is not required to be respectable; indeed grasping for wealth may undermine respectability. Respectability is about personal behaviour &#8211; having a job, behaving in a civil manner, bringing up your kids properly, contributing to the community.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362758</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362758</guid>
		<description>Magda, I&#039;m sure you&#039;re terribly streetwise, but I don&#039;t know what you mean. What would they decide &#039;once the sums are in&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Magda, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re terribly streetwise, but I don&#8217;t know what you mean. What would they decide &#8216;once the sums are in&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362746</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362746</guid>
		<description>James,

I would agree that the work-life balance is a big factor in fertility numbers, but demographers are not very optimistic about the degree to which policy can increase fertility via this kind of intervention in labour relations. Even in Sweden, where this kind of policy is taken to the max, fertility rates are only about 1.7 per woman (see www.indexmundi.com/sweden/total_fertility_rate.html) whereas it is 1.9 in Australia. I seem to recall that the believed ability of policies to influence fertility rates is in the order of 0.2. That is not such a big number cnosidering the variation in fertility rates, meaning that &#039;cultural factors&#039; are more important. Perhaps these monetary policies change culture in the long run but they dont seem to have in Sweden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I would agree that the work-life balance is a big factor in fertility numbers, but demographers are not very optimistic about the degree to which policy can increase fertility via this kind of intervention in labour relations. Even in Sweden, where this kind of policy is taken to the max, fertility rates are only about 1.7 per woman (see <a href="http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/total_fertility_rate.html">http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/total_fertility_rate.html</a>) whereas it is 1.9 in Australia. I seem to recall that the believed ability of policies to influence fertility rates is in the order of 0.2. That is not such a big number cnosidering the variation in fertility rates, meaning that &#8216;cultural factors&#8217; are more important. Perhaps these monetary policies change culture in the long run but they dont seem to have in Sweden.</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362745</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362745</guid>
		<description>Paul: Isn&#039;t the biggest obstacle to family life the lack of flexibility in working hours for professionals and managerial-level staff, especially in the private sector? A second order effect might be that full-time employed women, now permitted to spend six months at home, develop a taste for home and collective demand more job sharing options.

Andrew: &quot;‘respectable’ lower middle and working classes&quot; = &#039;aspirationals&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul: Isn&#8217;t the biggest obstacle to family life the lack of flexibility in working hours for professionals and managerial-level staff, especially in the private sector? A second order effect might be that full-time employed women, now permitted to spend six months at home, develop a taste for home and collective demand more job sharing options.</p>
<p>Andrew: &#8220;‘respectable’ lower middle and working classes&#8221; = &#8216;aspirationals&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Magda</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362741</link>
		<dc:creator>Magda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362741</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s all this &#039;women&#039; bizzo? The policy states &quot;primary carer&quot;. Once the sums are in what do you think the decision will be in households where the bloke earns $150K?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s all this &#8216;women&#8217; bizzo? The policy states &#8220;primary carer&#8221;. Once the sums are in what do you think the decision will be in households where the bloke earns $150K?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362709</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362709</guid>
		<description>James - I&#039;d need to think more carefully about the class question, because attitudes on class seem to me to be one of the areas where conservatism is undergoing a complex evolution. The rise of conservative populism against the  left-wing elites seems to me to have diminished the standing of the upper middle class and increased the standing of the &#039;respectable&#039; lower middle and working classes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James &#8211; I&#8217;d need to think more carefully about the class question, because attitudes on class seem to me to be one of the areas where conservatism is undergoing a complex evolution. The rise of conservative populism against the  left-wing elites seems to me to have diminished the standing of the upper middle class and increased the standing of the &#8216;respectable&#8217; lower middle and working classes.</p>
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		<title>By: John Ryan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362707</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362707</guid>
		<description>Love the bit about how nice it will be and it will not burden the taxpayers as much as the Govt scheme,utter rubbish,this is Australia old son and the cost will not affect the Company&#039;s or the Shareholders or the staff it will flow straight through to prices,and we all will pay for it.
Its just a Great Big TAX,and who pays the taxes we do</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the bit about how nice it will be and it will not burden the taxpayers as much as the Govt scheme,utter rubbish,this is Australia old son and the cost will not affect the Company&#8217;s or the Shareholders or the staff it will flow straight through to prices,and we all will pay for it.<br />
Its just a Great Big TAX,and who pays the taxes we do</p>
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		<title>By: James Farrell</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362703</link>
		<dc:creator>James Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362703</guid>
		<description>Andrew: I&#039;m having trouble opening the permalink, but from the first half of the post I get the gist. I agree, with the qualification that this particular thread of conservatism is not just pro-family, but sees the upper-middle class family in particular as the bedrock of society -- an institution that has evolved considerably since the Victorian era, with the improved status of women.

Patrick: more oan endorsement of the principle that if one doesn&#039;t know much about something, one should desist from making any strong pronouncements about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew: I&#8217;m having trouble opening the permalink, but from the first half of the post I get the gist. I agree, with the qualification that this particular thread of conservatism is not just pro-family, but sees the upper-middle class family in particular as the bedrock of society &#8212; an institution that has evolved considerably since the Victorian era, with the improved status of women.</p>
<p>Patrick: more oan endorsement of the principle that if one doesn&#8217;t know much about something, one should desist from making any strong pronouncements about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362701</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362701</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the last sentence is meant as a general endorsement of the principle that where the benefits are very hard to quantify, we should eschew government action?

Or perhaps not just &#039;government action&#039; but any change?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the last sentence is meant as a general endorsement of the principle that where the benefits are very hard to quantify, we should eschew government action?</p>
<p>Or perhaps not just &#8216;government action&#8217; but any change?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362700</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362700</guid>
		<description>James,

yes, the economic case boils down to the desirability of the social-engineering and, if we want more kids and think they have positive externalities, whether paid maternity leave is the way to go. I am a bit skeptical that it will raise fertility by much if you think of the monetary implications: kids incur immense costs over their lifetime and 6 months pay is not going to change the calculus by all that much to budding parents. Hence, we should probably assess the scheme more on its potential to change attitudes towards working mothers and the whole area of the obvious conflicting areas of child-rearing and paid employment: are there second-round cultural effects that would increase fertility? That&#039;s a fairly tricky sociological question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>yes, the economic case boils down to the desirability of the social-engineering and, if we want more kids and think they have positive externalities, whether paid maternity leave is the way to go. I am a bit skeptical that it will raise fertility by much if you think of the monetary implications: kids incur immense costs over their lifetime and 6 months pay is not going to change the calculus by all that much to budding parents. Hence, we should probably assess the scheme more on its potential to change attitudes towards working mothers and the whole area of the obvious conflicting areas of child-rearing and paid employment: are there second-round cultural effects that would increase fertility? That&#8217;s a fairly tricky sociological question.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362699</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362699</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t support Abbott&#039;s plan, &lt;a href=&quot;http://andrewnorton.info/2010/03/09/familism-meets-feminism/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I do think it is consistent &lt;/a&gt;with the way familist conservatism is evolving. If you assume that women are assessing the opportunity cost of leaving the workforce, then Abbott&#039;s plan targets that, while Rudd&#039;s does not. If a woman on $100K needed a large proportion of that, a minimum wage payment won&#039;t be enough to stop her going back to work as soon as it is physically possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t support Abbott&#8217;s plan, <a href="http://andrewnorton.info/2010/03/09/familism-meets-feminism/">I do think it is consistent </a>with the way familist conservatism is evolving. If you assume that women are assessing the opportunity cost of leaving the workforce, then Abbott&#8217;s plan targets that, while Rudd&#8217;s does not. If a woman on $100K needed a large proportion of that, a minimum wage payment won&#8217;t be enough to stop her going back to work as soon as it is physically possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362691</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362691</guid>
		<description>You suggest that when business meets the costs of their employees&#039; leave, either directly or via a levy, the costing falls broadly, just as if it were taxpayer funded. According to this reason, isn&#039;t sick leave or long-service leave for well-paid employees also &#039;middle class welfare pure and simple&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You suggest that when business meets the costs of their employees&#8217; leave, either directly or via a levy, the costing falls broadly, just as if it were taxpayer funded. According to this reason, isn&#8217;t sick leave or long-service leave for well-paid employees also &#8216;middle class welfare pure and simple&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/03/09/10563/#comment-362687</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.com.au/?p=10563#comment-362687</guid>
		<description>I think Mark has &lt;a href=&quot;http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/09/unfairness-and-abbotts-parental-leave-non-policy/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;managed a fairly good critique of this plan&lt;/a&gt;. It is regressive, and a give-away to the rich. More Howard-era nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mark has <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/09/unfairness-and-abbotts-parental-leave-non-policy/">managed a fairly good critique of this plan</a>. It is regressive, and a give-away to the rich. More Howard-era nonsense.</p>
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