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	<title>Comments on: Rents, public services and the &#8220;unearned increment&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/</link>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Tax increment finance and failing conventionally in NSW</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-408377</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Tax increment finance and failing conventionally in NSW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-408377</guid>
		<description>[...] taxation&#8220;. This is distinct from the idea of governments claiming the unearned increment that I talked about here. TIF doesn&#8217;t allow the creator of the infrastructure to claim the increment in property [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] taxation&#8220;. This is distinct from the idea of governments claiming the unearned increment that I talked about here. TIF doesn&#8217;t allow the creator of the infrastructure to claim the increment in property [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Green</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-398048</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-398048</guid>
		<description>Nick - I had long liked the idea of capital gains taxes for their anti-speculation virtues, and I had considered the stability aspects of taxes on unearned increment, but the Wolf article does really punch me with how fundamental it really is. I had thought of it as a periphiral issue. It&#039;s funny that I already consider rents to be the biggest enemy of human society and then get hit with a realisation that they&#039;re even worse. Before long they&#039;ll be taking on the aspects of cosmic supervillianry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick &#8211; I had long liked the idea of capital gains taxes for their anti-speculation virtues, and I had considered the stability aspects of taxes on unearned increment, but the Wolf article does really punch me with how fundamental it really is. I had thought of it as a periphiral issue. It&#8217;s funny that I already consider rents to be the biggest enemy of human society and then get hit with a realisation that they&#8217;re even worse. Before long they&#8217;ll be taking on the aspects of cosmic supervillianry</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397986</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397986</guid>
		<description>Richard,

Martin Wolf wrote &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8f06df9e-8ac1-11df-8e17-00144feab49a.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an excellent article&lt;/a&gt; attacking the culture of speculation that the &lt;em&gt;absence&lt;/em&gt; of betterment taxes sets off and the massive financial damage they do. Until then I saw the issue as you have presented it - a funding issue, an equitable and efficient opportunity to raise revenue, the better to reduce taxes elsewhere. But I think Wolf is right - it&#039;s a kind of original sin at the heart of our financial system. The CIS Peter Saunders who is now firmly ensconced back in the UK used to warn us of the moral hazards of all this - without his institution ever doing much to my knowledge to promote the taxation of betterment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>Martin Wolf wrote <a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8f06df9e-8ac1-11df-8e17-00144feab49a.html">an excellent article</a> attacking the culture of speculation that the <em>absence</em> of betterment taxes sets off and the massive financial damage they do. Until then I saw the issue as you have presented it &#8211; a funding issue, an equitable and efficient opportunity to raise revenue, the better to reduce taxes elsewhere. But I think Wolf is right &#8211; it&#8217;s a kind of original sin at the heart of our financial system. The CIS Peter Saunders who is now firmly ensconced back in the UK used to warn us of the moral hazards of all this &#8211; without his institution ever doing much to my knowledge to promote the taxation of betterment.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Green</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397971</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397971</guid>
		<description>DD - That&#039;s delightful. I&#039;d be very interested to see how it worked/would work in practice.


Paul - &lt;blockquote&gt; I will take a determined effort to introduce land taxes.&lt;/blockquote&gt; I&#039;m glad you&#039;ll make this a personal mission. But seriously, I agree that the biggest problem facing any scheme is the political will and capacity to get anything done. But that&#039;s the story of rents through history I guess</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DD &#8211; That&#8217;s delightful. I&#8217;d be very interested to see how it worked/would work in practice.</p>
<p>Paul &#8211;<br />
<blockquote> I will take a determined effort to introduce land taxes.</p></blockquote>
<p> I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ll make this a personal mission. But seriously, I agree that the biggest problem facing any scheme is the political will and capacity to get anything done. But that&#8217;s the story of rents through history I guess</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397940</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397940</guid>
		<description>Of course this is classic Henry George stuff (O&#039;Malley knew, and was a fan of, his fellow Californian).  It&#039;s why local council rates are based on Unimproved Capital Value - not quite pure Georgism (which should be based on the &lt;strong&gt;increment &lt;/strong&gt;in value), but close enough.

Georgist ideas were very influential in early 20th century Australia - part of our progressivism, now sadly lost.  In particular, South Australia, as well as being the first state in the world to give women the vote, based its tax system on land value increment.  They even implemented that wonderful self-enforcing mechanism that George suggested: the taxable value of the land was whatever the taxpayer wanted to state it was - the only catch was the state reserved the right to buy it at that valuation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course this is classic Henry George stuff (O&#8217;Malley knew, and was a fan of, his fellow Californian).  It&#8217;s why local council rates are based on Unimproved Capital Value &#8211; not quite pure Georgism (which should be based on the <strong>increment </strong>in value), but close enough.</p>
<p>Georgist ideas were very influential in early 20th century Australia &#8211; part of our progressivism, now sadly lost.  In particular, South Australia, as well as being the first state in the world to give women the vote, based its tax system on land value increment.  They even implemented that wonderful self-enforcing mechanism that George suggested: the taxable value of the land was whatever the taxpayer wanted to state it was &#8211; the only catch was the state reserved the right to buy it at that valuation!</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Williams</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397877</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397877</guid>
		<description>IMHO, it&#039;s a no-brainer. The capturing of the &quot;unearned increment&quot; for the public purse is not only fair, but it will work against the spiralling houseingunaffordability. Did I say &quot;housing&quot;? No, houses depreciate - it&#039;s the land on which they sit that&#039;s spiralling out of control!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, it&#8217;s a no-brainer. The capturing of the &#8220;unearned increment&#8221; for the public purse is not only fair, but it will work against the spiralling houseingunaffordability. Did I say &#8220;housing&#8221;? No, houses depreciate &#8211; it&#8217;s the land on which they sit that&#8217;s spiralling out of control!</p>
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		<title>By: L</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397869</link>
		<dc:creator>L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397869</guid>
		<description>The funny thing about the ACT&#039;s leasehold system is that if the government ever actually tried to take back any of the leased residential land at the end of the lease period there&#039;d be blood on the streets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The funny thing about the ACT&#8217;s leasehold system is that if the government ever actually tried to take back any of the leased residential land at the end of the lease period there&#8217;d be blood on the streets.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397861</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397861</guid>
		<description>Paul: There&#039;s already precedent (in WA at least) for councils charging a scheme fee on subdivision when they increase the allowed density, to pay for the increased services required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul: There&#8217;s already precedent (in WA at least) for councils charging a scheme fee on subdivision when they increase the allowed density, to pay for the increased services required.</p>
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		<title>By: Tel</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397859</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397859</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
The premium paid on housing close to transport (particularly rail) is very high. This probably explains why CityRail (NSW) passengers have higher incomes that the rest of the state.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

People are on the train primarily so they can to get to work, those who are unemployed, retired, on single parent pension, etc. don&#039;t feel the urge to ride back and forth on the train all day. I&#039;m completely sure that if you did a statistical survey of people in peak hour traffic and people on peak hour trains you would find the people in the cars earning significantly more than the people in trains.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Sticking with rail, higher fares would likely effect the price elastic customers who have traded time for money (or space) by living further from the station. They will take to driving instead (with other negative effects) whilst the price inelastic customers who paid more to live close will still push up housing prices and pay the higher fares.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So on the understanding that people have very little choice about going to work in order to earn a living, you have just pointed out that every single person catching a train to work is in fact contributing to the public well being partly be buying a ticket and partly be choosing not to drive. Having admitted that, might be time to drop the &quot;unearned increment&quot; concept.

Besides, in the very long term, land prices don&#039;t increment much faster than inflation anyhow, so taxing the capital gain is just a way of ensuring that the &quot;tax by stealth&quot; nature of inflation equally bites those who try to hedge against it by buying an asset. Any time government gets their budget out of control they just have to print a bit of money, inflate the currency then hold their hand out for tax on all the capital gains. If the same government fronted up to the same people and told them they were going to extract the same tax directly they would be out on their ear. It&#039;s a scam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
The premium paid on housing close to transport (particularly rail) is very high. This probably explains why CityRail (NSW) passengers have higher incomes that the rest of the state.
</p></blockquote>
<p>People are on the train primarily so they can to get to work, those who are unemployed, retired, on single parent pension, etc. don&#8217;t feel the urge to ride back and forth on the train all day. I&#8217;m completely sure that if you did a statistical survey of people in peak hour traffic and people on peak hour trains you would find the people in the cars earning significantly more than the people in trains.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Sticking with rail, higher fares would likely effect the price elastic customers who have traded time for money (or space) by living further from the station. They will take to driving instead (with other negative effects) whilst the price inelastic customers who paid more to live close will still push up housing prices and pay the higher fares.
</p></blockquote>
<p>So on the understanding that people have very little choice about going to work in order to earn a living, you have just pointed out that every single person catching a train to work is in fact contributing to the public well being partly be buying a ticket and partly be choosing not to drive. Having admitted that, might be time to drop the &#8220;unearned increment&#8221; concept.</p>
<p>Besides, in the very long term, land prices don&#8217;t increment much faster than inflation anyhow, so taxing the capital gain is just a way of ensuring that the &#8220;tax by stealth&#8221; nature of inflation equally bites those who try to hedge against it by buying an asset. Any time government gets their budget out of control they just have to print a bit of money, inflate the currency then hold their hand out for tax on all the capital gains. If the same government fronted up to the same people and told them they were going to extract the same tax directly they would be out on their ear. It&#8217;s a scam.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Frijters</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397824</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Frijters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397824</guid>
		<description>Richard,

good points. Land taxes are certainly the easiest way to go. Another would be to auction off the right to redevelop land. That wouldnt tax the increase in house prices but would cream off the rents made from property redvelopment.

of course, all these things depend on the Henry Review being alive. I will take a determined effort to introduce land taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>good points. Land taxes are certainly the easiest way to go. Another would be to auction off the right to redevelop land. That wouldnt tax the increase in house prices but would cream off the rents made from property redvelopment.</p>
<p>of course, all these things depend on the Henry Review being alive. I will take a determined effort to introduce land taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397802</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397802</guid>
		<description>The US method is &quot;Tax increment financing&quot;, where the increase in land tax is put towards paying off the bonds that funded the infrastructure. I&#039;m not sure how well it would work here, as our city councils aren&#039;t big enough to do infrastructure themselves, and the state isn&#039;t set up to collect land tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The US method is &#8220;Tax increment financing&#8221;, where the increase in land tax is put towards paying off the bonds that funded the infrastructure. I&#8217;m not sure how well it would work here, as our city councils aren&#8217;t big enough to do infrastructure themselves, and the state isn&#8217;t set up to collect land tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Bradbury</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397774</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Bradbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397774</guid>
		<description>A land tax together with a loan scheme to allow people to delay payment until they sell the property might be feasible for new developments. A vote could be held by those affected to see if the proposed project goes ahead.

I wonder if this would be a case where a plutocratic voting scheme would be equitable. Ie forecast the likely tax required to finance a new project and give people votes in proportion to their likely tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A land tax together with a loan scheme to allow people to delay payment until they sell the property might be feasible for new developments. A vote could be held by those affected to see if the proposed project goes ahead.</p>
<p>I wonder if this would be a case where a plutocratic voting scheme would be equitable. Ie forecast the likely tax required to finance a new project and give people votes in proportion to their likely tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Fitzgerald</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/08/17/rents-public-services-and-the-unearned-increment/#comment-397755</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Fitzgerald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=12160#comment-397755</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately there are few other options. Japan has kept its rail ticket prices very low because they use tickets to cover marginal costs (driver wages etc). The large fixed costs (providing the tracks) are funded by a form of Land Value Capture (Land Tax). Most stations are placed below retail centres. Private shopping centre owners are given the planning approval to build such complexes if a share of the naturally increasing locational value (reflected in land prices) is recycled back to the railroad operator. Both the shopping centres and rail companies are profitable. 

MTR in Hong Kong benefits from a similar LVC system. They now run Melbourne&#039;s metro. If only more knew how train lines were funded in early Oz, ie &lt;a href=&quot;http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3792490&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Glen Waverley.&lt;/a&gt; 

Fred Harrison&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?ID=307&amp;type=book&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wheels of Fortune&lt;/a&gt; (free download) explains the history of infrastructure financing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately there are few other options. Japan has kept its rail ticket prices very low because they use tickets to cover marginal costs (driver wages etc). The large fixed costs (providing the tracks) are funded by a form of Land Value Capture (Land Tax). Most stations are placed below retail centres. Private shopping centre owners are given the planning approval to build such complexes if a share of the naturally increasing locational value (reflected in land prices) is recycled back to the railroad operator. Both the shopping centres and rail companies are profitable. </p>
<p>MTR in Hong Kong benefits from a similar LVC system. They now run Melbourne&#8217;s metro. If only more knew how train lines were funded in early Oz, ie <a href="http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3792490">Glen Waverley.</a> </p>
<p>Fred Harrison&#8217;s <a href="http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?ID=307&amp;type=book">Wheels of Fortune</a> (free download) explains the history of infrastructure financing.</p>
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