
A while back I was rung up and interviewed by a student doing a thesis on Government 2.0. She asked lots of good questions and they brought out in me a bunch of things I’ve been thinking about regarding Government 2.0.
Since she sent me a transcript, I thought it may be useful to put it online. Please excuse some strange things that go on in the transcript. Sometimes words are clearly wrong. And elsewhere if it’s badly expressed that’s probably the difference between me extemporising and me with the opportunity to correct and qualify things. So apologies, but I don’t have the time to go through and correct it.
Anyway, some people may find it of interest and I’d be interested to know what, if anything people make of it. And I’ll be happy to try to elaborate on anything you want me to.
Phone Interview with Nicholas Gruen (20/7/10)
AB: To begin, I wanted to ask how you personally have become involved or interested with the ideas of gov 2.0?
NG: Well there is quite a nice diagram, which I can send you, which I now use in my slides, which is a curve that you follow when getting involved with web 2.0. It starts by reading a post, then you can maybe stick it in your favourites or you make a comment and then you make longer comments and then someone sends you an invitation to write a post and on it goes. So I basically got involved in blogging in about 2005. I’m an economist who is fairly critical of the way that economics works typically because it is obsessed with the measurable and the quantifiable and it used to be a system for thinking about our economy and society and how it worked. I had been arguing for a long time that information flows are much more important than economists were behaving as if they were. It was a very exciting development when I happened upon the blog of John Quiggin and saw three or four years of archives of him having written on any number of subjects and how useful that can be. So things like that and Wikipedia got me pretty excited. So I became a blogger and wrote about this sort of stuff and the applications of it to government. Remarkably enough the government then asked me to chair the enquiry. I say remarkably because normally our social systems aren’t anything like that responsive and it was pretty lucky I think for me personally. Well some people think that I was a well-chosen candidate because I was a new convert to this stuff. Of course there was nobody but new converts because it was a very new sort of thing.
AB: I’m just going to start by asking some really general questions regarding your ideas about how to define the idea. How do you define the concept of gov 2.0?
NG: The application of the collaborative possibilities and mores to all tasks in government. By all tasks I don’t mean that there will still be some tasks that we can’t apply those things to but for virtually everything it’s worth asking the question how much can we throw the switch in that direction.
AB: And in your opinion what do you see to be the relationship between gov 2.0 and the concept of web 2.0?
NG: Well one is a sub set of the other. The web 2.0 is a set of technical possibilities and a zeitgeist, which has an influence in many areas and government, is the most obvious area where it should have an influence.
AB: What do you think are the origins of gov 2.0? How do you think it has evolved into its current form?
NG: Well I guess in my theory I’m quite happy to follow Tim O’Reilly’s article: What is web 2.0? So it’s a set of technical possibilities that people stumbled upon. One of the interesting things you could say about web 2 is that it is the reality catching up with the hype. Before web 2 you had a hell of a lot of hype about how the Internet was going to change the world, make everyone their own publisher and all this sort of stuff. Apart from the fact that it ended up with lots of egg on its face at the time of the dot com crash, many of those things proceeded to come true as we spontaneously wrote encyclopaedias together and did all these extraordinary things. So the origin of web 2 is this phoenix rising from the ashes to show that once the focus suddenly turned towards this chaotic collaboration that was possible over the web and people started building platforms to facilitate it, many of these very star struck dreams of the hype people had been going on with about web 1 started becoming true.
AB: Government 2.0 is a complex idea with many different elements. What do you think is the most important aspect of government 2.0?
NG: A couple of really critical things are, that tapping of collaboration from anywhere and the possibility of turning an organisation inside out or simply re-drawing the boundaries of an organisation. For example the national library has a newspaper digitisation project in which it is digitising its historic collection of newspapers going back to 1802. Obviously getting those in text is very useful because it enables us to search the text and it gets computers to do the optical character recognition. There are lots of errors in that and then volunteers from outside the national library and indeed volunteers, who are not paid, correct all the character recognition flaws. So that’s the kind of re-arrangement of how it might have otherwise been done. I’ve argued that we should hope that in 20 years time, maybe 10 years time, we get our first secretary of a department who has been recruited as a volunteer and has worked for quite some time as a volunteer rather than as a recruit that comes in as a graduate and just works their way up the ladder in a normal way. One of the problems of public service is that you want people who are well motivated and the only ways we’ve had of doing that so far is to have codes of conduct and prevent people from having conflicts of interests. Another way of selecting people who really value the public interest is through the volunteers’ route because if they are volunteering they have no other reason for doing it, other than for doing a good job and to serve the public in doing so.
(Continued)