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	<title>Comments for Club Troppo</title>
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	<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au</link>
	<description>Fearlessly dispensing political, legal and economic analysis (and some whimsy) since 2002</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 02:52:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Multidimensional trust by conrad</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/26/multidimensional-trust/#comment-474190</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 02:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19909#comment-474190</guid>
		<description>Looks like I&#039;d better start reading the strategic motives that management where I work sends around constantly (which usually don&#039;t include their own motives, like getting a promotion etc.), or at least look at the arrows.

The real problem in trying to interpret this is that most businesses have essentially the same strategic motive, especially ones that lend you money, and it can be summed up rather easily:&quot;make money&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like I&#8217;d better start reading the strategic motives that management where I work sends around constantly (which usually don&#8217;t include their own motives, like getting a promotion etc.), or at least look at the arrows.</p>
<p>The real problem in trying to interpret this is that most businesses have essentially the same strategic motive, especially ones that lend you money, and it can be summed up rather easily:&#8221;make money&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mac Book Air mini-review and power useage bleg by hc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/26/mac-book-air-mini-review-and-power-useage-bleg/#comment-474189</link>
		<dc:creator>hc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 01:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19905#comment-474189</guid>
		<description>You should do better than1.5 hours.  Have you switched off your wif-fi?

There are plenty of backup batteries around - one very good one is the Trent - that should double the full life of your Mac on a plane. 

I switched to Mac&#039;s a year back and now find Windows hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should do better than1.5 hours.  Have you switched off your wif-fi?</p>
<p>There are plenty of backup batteries around &#8211; one very good one is the Trent &#8211; that should double the full life of your Mac on a plane. </p>
<p>I switched to Mac&#8217;s a year back and now find Windows hard.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Multidimensional trust by Dennis Argall</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/26/multidimensional-trust/#comment-474188</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Argall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 01:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19909#comment-474188</guid>
		<description>We are blinded by the persistence of Darwinian and neo-Darwinian thinking in the teaching and practice of commerce and economics as also in junior areas of science.

When in fact the front edge of evolutionary biology long ago accepted Lynn Margulis&#039;s argument that it is collaboration rather than competition that has led to the greatest advances in evolution. 

The need to argue elaborate cases for &#039;trust&#039; as some kind of artefact would diminish if it could be understood that at the core of life processes it is collaboration which has been important in getting us to this poin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/science/lynn-margulis-trailblazing-theorist-on-evolution-dies-at-73.html
http://digitaljournal.com/article/321533
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_24

I suppose it&#039;s much easier to put competition into modelling than is collaboration. Is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are blinded by the persistence of Darwinian and neo-Darwinian thinking in the teaching and practice of commerce and economics as also in junior areas of science.</p>
<p>When in fact the front edge of evolutionary biology long ago accepted Lynn Margulis&#8217;s argument that it is collaboration rather than competition that has led to the greatest advances in evolution. </p>
<p>The need to argue elaborate cases for &#8216;trust&#8217; as some kind of artefact would diminish if it could be understood that at the core of life processes it is collaboration which has been important in getting us to this poin.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/science/lynn-margulis-trailblazing-theorist-on-evolution-dies-at-73.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/science/lynn-margulis-trailblazing-theorist-on-evolution-dies-at-73.html</a><br />
<a href="http://digitaljournal.com/article/321533">http://digitaljournal.com/article/321533</a><br />
<a href="http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_24">http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_24</a></p>
<p>I suppose it&#8217;s much easier to put competition into modelling than is collaboration. Is it?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mac Book Air mini-review and power useage bleg by conrad</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/26/mac-book-air-mini-review-and-power-useage-bleg/#comment-474186</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 00:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19905#comment-474186</guid>
		<description>You might want to test if your battery has carked it. Unless Apples have the worst batteries on Earth, even a high power option should last more than 1.5 hours (unless Apples really are crapples). Try swapping your battery for someone else&#039;s battery and see if you have the same problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to test if your battery has carked it. Unless Apples have the worst batteries on Earth, even a high power option should last more than 1.5 hours (unless Apples really are crapples). Try swapping your battery for someone else&#8217;s battery and see if you have the same problem.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474165</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 13:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474165</guid>
		<description>Hugh Mahon in 1920, not because of the numbers in the house but to demonise the ALP to the electorate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugh Mahon in 1920, not because of the numbers in the house but to demonise the ALP to the electorate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Lolita</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474163</link>
		<dc:creator>Lolita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 12:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474163</guid>
		<description>Wasn&#039;t an MP expelled from parliament by Billy Hughes&#039;s government for daring to support the Irish against the British Empire?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t an MP expelled from parliament by Billy Hughes&#8217;s government for daring to support the Irish against the British Empire?</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474151</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 04:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474151</guid>
		<description>Asking MPs to all ont heir swords as a matter of ethics, and without going through a legal process,  is just another way of advocating an end to procedural fairness, natural justice, the presumption of innocence etc etc. 

I am reasonably confident Thomson is not hanging on for grim death in defence of the highest principle, but his motives really do not matter. There are uncompleted police inquiries. There is a report from a public servant that cites not one witness statement and not one expert statement. For example the validity or otherwise of various signatures is determined by the public servant speculating about whether the signatures is authentic or not although he does not appear to have any quals as a handwriting analyst. The delegate in facts says nothing except that the signature is Thomson&#039;s. A whole lot of the report is explicitly based on radio and TV interviews. The report would be thrown out by a court of petty sessions if it was tendered as evidence of shoplifting.

You cannot make up for the deficiencies of the process by asking the guy to take a walk outside the tent. That is just an invitation for deficient process in the future to be replaced by overheated parliamentary and media speculation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asking MPs to all ont heir swords as a matter of ethics, and without going through a legal process,  is just another way of advocating an end to procedural fairness, natural justice, the presumption of innocence etc etc. </p>
<p>I am reasonably confident Thomson is not hanging on for grim death in defence of the highest principle, but his motives really do not matter. There are uncompleted police inquiries. There is a report from a public servant that cites not one witness statement and not one expert statement. For example the validity or otherwise of various signatures is determined by the public servant speculating about whether the signatures is authentic or not although he does not appear to have any quals as a handwriting analyst. The delegate in facts says nothing except that the signature is Thomson&#8217;s. A whole lot of the report is explicitly based on radio and TV interviews. The report would be thrown out by a court of petty sessions if it was tendered as evidence of shoplifting.</p>
<p>You cannot make up for the deficiencies of the process by asking the guy to take a walk outside the tent. That is just an invitation for deficient process in the future to be replaced by overheated parliamentary and media speculation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The high cost of free information by Frank and candid or same old secrecy obsession? &#124; CDU Law and Business Online</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/24/the-high-cost-of-free-information/#comment-474148</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank and candid or same old secrecy obsession? &#124; CDU Law and Business Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 03:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=15890#comment-474148</guid>
		<description>[...] electronic document management may not be as egregious as it seems.  When I wrote about this at Club Troppo last year, federal government IT consultant Stephen Bounds [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] electronic document management may not be as egregious as it seems.  When I wrote about this at Club Troppo last year, federal government IT consultant Stephen Bounds [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474142</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 00:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474142</guid>
		<description>I agree with hc&#039;s comment. The affiliated unions have largely turned into  either antechambers for the factions. I also agree with KB Cairns. 

It&#039;s just extraordinary that the FWA report, which is designed under FWA&#039;s own legislation to be referred to the DPP for prosecution, was not usable. Ditto the sections of the FWA report referred to the AEC. And all this after 3 years of effort.

I have not seen a lot of media comment that the delegate of the General Manager of Fair Work Australia. who some would make the final authority on Thomson&#039;s case, seems not to understand the requirements for a criminal prosecution or the Electoral Act.

We will see what the nine inquiries produce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with hc&#8217;s comment. The affiliated unions have largely turned into  either antechambers for the factions. I also agree with KB Cairns. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just extraordinary that the FWA report, which is designed under FWA&#8217;s own legislation to be referred to the DPP for prosecution, was not usable. Ditto the sections of the FWA report referred to the AEC. And all this after 3 years of effort.</p>
<p>I have not seen a lot of media comment that the delegate of the General Manager of Fair Work Australia. who some would make the final authority on Thomson&#8217;s case, seems not to understand the requirements for a criminal prosecution or the Electoral Act.</p>
<p>We will see what the nine inquiries produce.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by JB Cairns</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474140</link>
		<dc:creator>JB Cairns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 23:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474140</guid>
		<description>I will await any charges. There are what 9 inquiries at present into his conduct.

He is not a convincing person. I did find it interesting the charges he made against Jackson were not denied by her. They were deliberately ignored in Sinclair Davidson fashion by her.  No-one has picked this up at all.

It also appears the person who wrote the FWA report had no idea of what the DPP would want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will await any charges. There are what 9 inquiries at present into his conduct.</p>
<p>He is not a convincing person. I did find it interesting the charges he made against Jackson were not denied by her. They were deliberately ignored in Sinclair Davidson fashion by her.  No-one has picked this up at all.</p>
<p>It also appears the person who wrote the FWA report had no idea of what the DPP would want.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by hc</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474131</link>
		<dc:creator>hc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 21:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474131</guid>
		<description>I thought Thomson showed tenacity and ingenuity in rejecting an overwhelming case against him. But like almost everyone I didn&#039;t believe his story and was not impressed by his cry baby antics.  

The &#039;be in it mate&#039; syndrome is a part of the ALP&#039;s central ethos.  Thomson is one of many - most in the NSW Branch executive are worse. A bunch of self-serving deadheads who make a nominal commitment to Labor ideology to cloak their selfishness. Very limited people in an overall sense whose only feasible path to self-aggrandisement rests in crooked deals and hypocrisy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Thomson showed tenacity and ingenuity in rejecting an overwhelming case against him. But like almost everyone I didn&#8217;t believe his story and was not impressed by his cry baby antics.  </p>
<p>The &#8216;be in it mate&#8217; syndrome is a part of the ALP&#8217;s central ethos.  Thomson is one of many &#8211; most in the NSW Branch executive are worse. A bunch of self-serving deadheads who make a nominal commitment to Labor ideology to cloak their selfishness. Very limited people in an overall sense whose only feasible path to self-aggrandisement rests in crooked deals and hypocrisy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474103</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 12:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474103</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Tel. I could not disagree more. 

Suspension was regularly misused for political advantage in Queensland before 1988. Even the famous Mahon expulsion in 1920 was not about numbers, it was about Billie Hughes trying to paint the ALP as a gang of dangerous Fenians disloyal to the British empire. 

Open this door and I assure you that an Abbot majority will leap through it as fast as they can. They are already all but accusing the AEC of bias even though keeping the commission outside politics has been common ground for all parties since it was established as an independent body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Tel. I could not disagree more. </p>
<p>Suspension was regularly misused for political advantage in Queensland before 1988. Even the famous Mahon expulsion in 1920 was not about numbers, it was about Billie Hughes trying to paint the ALP as a gang of dangerous Fenians disloyal to the British empire. </p>
<p>Open this door and I assure you that an Abbot majority will leap through it as fast as they can. They are already all but accusing the AEC of bias even though keeping the commission outside politics has been common ground for all parties since it was established as an independent body.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Tel</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474097</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 10:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474097</guid>
		<description>I think you are missing the point a bit. Members get suspended on a regular basis, usually for one hour, usually for speaking out of turn in question time... no big deal really, and pretty much under control of the Speaker, who in turn is selected by government anyhow (although the quiet presumption is that the Speaker will be even handed, but presumably you don&#039;t trust Tony Abbott, so I see no reason why you should place any special trust in a Speaker that he selects).

Once a government has a comfortable majority vote, there&#039;s no particular reason to go suspending opposition members for the fun of it. It doesn&#039;t change the outcome. The only time it would make a big deal is if you had a government hanging in there by only one vote, and if the suspension was for a long time, enough to put together a no-confidence (I don&#039;t know the technicalities, but I&#039;m sure that can&#039;t be done in an hour).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are missing the point a bit. Members get suspended on a regular basis, usually for one hour, usually for speaking out of turn in question time&#8230; no big deal really, and pretty much under control of the Speaker, who in turn is selected by government anyhow (although the quiet presumption is that the Speaker will be even handed, but presumably you don&#8217;t trust Tony Abbott, so I see no reason why you should place any special trust in a Speaker that he selects).</p>
<p>Once a government has a comfortable majority vote, there&#8217;s no particular reason to go suspending opposition members for the fun of it. It doesn&#8217;t change the outcome. The only time it would make a big deal is if you had a government hanging in there by only one vote, and if the suspension was for a long time, enough to put together a no-confidence (I don&#8217;t know the technicalities, but I&#8217;m sure that can&#8217;t be done in an hour).</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474096</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474096</guid>
		<description>The Electoral Commission has also &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CHQQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aec.gov.au%2FParties_and_Representatives%2Fcompliance%2Ffiles%2Fhsu-report.pdf&amp;ei=o_i9T-TXC6-iiAfDqbS1Dw&amp;usg=AFQjCNGujADXiPJXxavwaMB3KSgaVDQ33Q&quot;&gt;contradicted&lt;/a&gt; a number of the conclusions (I struggle not to talk about penetrating insights)  by the delegate of the General Manager of Fair Work Australia. The Coalition is in the process of trying to shoot the commission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Electoral Commission has also <a href="http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CHQQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aec.gov.au%2FParties_and_Representatives%2Fcompliance%2Ffiles%2Fhsu-report.pdf&amp;ei=o_i9T-TXC6-iiAfDqbS1Dw&amp;usg=AFQjCNGujADXiPJXxavwaMB3KSgaVDQ33Q">contradicted</a> a number of the conclusions (I struggle not to talk about penetrating insights)  by the delegate of the General Manager of Fair Work Australia. The Coalition is in the process of trying to shoot the commission.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Katz</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474095</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 08:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474095</guid>
		<description>Nabs, according to press reports, Fair Work Australia has not proffered any evidence of any actual penetration, no matter how slight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nabs, according to press reports, Fair Work Australia has not proffered any evidence of any actual penetration, no matter how slight.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by mct</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474092</link>
		<dc:creator>mct</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 06:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474092</guid>
		<description>Alan on May 23, 2012 at 9:13 pm said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you really want to give them the ability to expel or suspend MPs on an allegation?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I most certainly don&#039;t... and that goes to the nub of my point. It is encumbent on the MP in this situation to do the &quot;right thing&quot;, not to wait on some (possible) legal process. There appears to be no process by which Thomson can be booted, and I am happy that is the case. If there were it would be used and abused by all and sundry. 

This is not about some supposed guilt or innocence, no matter how some may say it is. It is about ethics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan on May 23, 2012 at 9:13 pm said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Do you really want to give them the ability to expel or suspend MPs on an allegation?</p></blockquote>
<p>I most certainly don&#8217;t&#8230; and that goes to the nub of my point. It is encumbent on the MP in this situation to do the &#8220;right thing&#8221;, not to wait on some (possible) legal process. There appears to be no process by which Thomson can be booted, and I am happy that is the case. If there were it would be used and abused by all and sundry. </p>
<p>This is not about some supposed guilt or innocence, no matter how some may say it is. It is about ethics.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social justice is about more than redistribution by Julie Thomas</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/12/social-justice-is-about-more-than-redistribution/#comment-474091</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 06:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19705#comment-474091</guid>
		<description>ROFL I was there in the &#039;60&#039;s Nick and apparently there were no millionaires in Australia, http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/the-return-of-the-australian-magnate-20120501-1xwpv.html

I&#039;m so going to learn how to embed links one of these days.

I&#039;m using the situation as a koan - a zen term for something for which there is no rational solution. Because, there has to be somebody to blame here and I can&#039;t work out who it is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ROFL I was there in the &#8217;60&#8242;s Nick and apparently there were no millionaires in Australia, <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/the-return-of-the-australian-magnate-20120501-1xwpv.html">http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/the-return-of-the-australian-magnate-20120501-1xwpv.html</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m so going to learn how to embed links one of these days.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m using the situation as a koan &#8211; a zen term for something for which there is no rational solution. Because, there has to be somebody to blame here and I can&#8217;t work out who it is!</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474089</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 06:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474089</guid>
		<description>Well we do know now that there is at least one member of the Federal ALP that can organise a root in a brothel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well we do know now that there is at least one member of the Federal ALP that can organise a root in a brothel.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social justice is about more than redistribution by Nick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/12/social-justice-is-about-more-than-redistribution/#comment-474088</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 06:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19705#comment-474088</guid>
		<description>Julie, believe it or not, at this point I want to have a go at writing a 1960’s style ethics scenario entitled “The Rinehart Paradox:  Why Too Much Money Is Never Enough”.  “There’s a very rich woman who has four children... should she a)... or b)...or c)...”   Then I’d like to turn that into a catchy danceable song about a robot civilisation in the future trying in vain to decode the paradox long after humans have disappeared from the universe.   Said robot civilisation is having its own problems with an oncoming apocalypse, and is wondering how the humans would have felt and responded, so that it can program itself how to feel and respond.  I’ll let you know if I ever get anywhere with it :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, believe it or not, at this point I want to have a go at writing a 1960’s style ethics scenario entitled “The Rinehart Paradox:  Why Too Much Money Is Never Enough”.  “There’s a very rich woman who has four children&#8230; should she a)&#8230; or b)&#8230;or c)&#8230;”   Then I’d like to turn that into a catchy danceable song about a robot civilisation in the future trying in vain to decode the paradox long after humans have disappeared from the universe.   Said robot civilisation is having its own problems with an oncoming apocalypse, and is wondering how the humans would have felt and responded, so that it can program itself how to feel and respond.  I’ll let you know if I ever get anywhere with it :)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lock them up and throw away the key? by Nick</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/20/lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key-there-must-be-a-better-way/#comment-474087</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 06:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19789#comment-474087</guid>
		<description>Ken: &quot;like scheduling under mental health legislation&quot;

It would certainly be odd if a patient or their counsel weren&#039;t informed of why they had been involuntary admitted, given regular updates on the progress of their treatment, and some kind of reasonable idea of what was expected to improve in their condition before they could be released.

conrad: &quot;Morally, for example, I don’t think people should be held indefintely based on secret evidence, but obviously the law thinks otherwise.&quot;

Terrorism is an *emergency*!  The public are supposed to understand that all bets are off.  In an emergency, we can suspend and rewrite the law however we wish.   I merely have to conjure up the words &#039;potential terrorist&#039;, and I&#039;ve already gone a long way toward justifying somebody’s indefinite detention.  That’s the power of securitisation politics in full swing.   It has very little to do with morals or the law thinking otherwise.  Rather, the maintenance of belief that certain actions are *necessary* in spite of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken: &#8220;like scheduling under mental health legislation&#8221;</p>
<p>It would certainly be odd if a patient or their counsel weren&#8217;t informed of why they had been involuntary admitted, given regular updates on the progress of their treatment, and some kind of reasonable idea of what was expected to improve in their condition before they could be released.</p>
<p>conrad: &#8220;Morally, for example, I don’t think people should be held indefintely based on secret evidence, but obviously the law thinks otherwise.&#8221;</p>
<p>Terrorism is an *emergency*!  The public are supposed to understand that all bets are off.  In an emergency, we can suspend and rewrite the law however we wish.   I merely have to conjure up the words &#8216;potential terrorist&#8217;, and I&#8217;ve already gone a long way toward justifying somebody’s indefinite detention.  That’s the power of securitisation politics in full swing.   It has very little to do with morals or the law thinking otherwise.  Rather, the maintenance of belief that certain actions are *necessary* in spite of them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Craig Thomson Reader by Alan</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/23/a-craig-thomson-reader/#comment-474085</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 04:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19886#comment-474085</guid>
		<description>The time FWA took to write its report was not under Thomson&#039;s control. The premise that others do not get good advocacy is both true and outrageous. It does not support abandoning procedural fairness as a general principle or the claim that procedural fairness is leniency. 

MPs are elected by the people. If they can be removed on an unreviewed report by a single public servant then you are going to see a whole lot of MPs under allegation. Parliamentary immunities are part of what maintains democracy, Before parliament abolished the right to expel MPs that power had been used only once, in 1920, in a blatantly political exercise by Billie Hughes.

The next house of representatives is likely to have a large majority for an Abbot government. Do you really want to give them the ability to expel or suspend MPs on an allegation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The time FWA took to write its report was not under Thomson&#8217;s control. The premise that others do not get good advocacy is both true and outrageous. It does not support abandoning procedural fairness as a general principle or the claim that procedural fairness is leniency. </p>
<p>MPs are elected by the people. If they can be removed on an unreviewed report by a single public servant then you are going to see a whole lot of MPs under allegation. Parliamentary immunities are part of what maintains democracy, Before parliament abolished the right to expel MPs that power had been used only once, in 1920, in a blatantly political exercise by Billie Hughes.</p>
<p>The next house of representatives is likely to have a large majority for an Abbot government. Do you really want to give them the ability to expel or suspend MPs on an allegation?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lock them up and throw away the key? by Katz</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/20/lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key-there-must-be-a-better-way/#comment-474084</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 03:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19789#comment-474084</guid>
		<description>Control orders may entail a broad range of restrictions and prohibitions.

Clearly there are levels of control that are commensurate with the perceived risk and there are levels of control that are excessive.

As the matter stands, ASIO decides not only the requirement of a control order but also the methodology of control.

Clearly, a judicial process could be introduced to assess the level of future threat and to impose the appropriate level of control.

This precedure would help to mitigate the inordinate power of ASIO in these matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Control orders may entail a broad range of restrictions and prohibitions.</p>
<p>Clearly there are levels of control that are commensurate with the perceived risk and there are levels of control that are excessive.</p>
<p>As the matter stands, ASIO decides not only the requirement of a control order but also the methodology of control.</p>
<p>Clearly, a judicial process could be introduced to assess the level of future threat and to impose the appropriate level of control.</p>
<p>This precedure would help to mitigate the inordinate power of ASIO in these matters.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lock them up and throw away the key? by Ken Parish</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/20/lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key-there-must-be-a-better-way/#comment-474080</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Parish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 00:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19789#comment-474080</guid>
		<description>Control orders, like scheduling under mental health legislation, are about future risk and community protection rather than punishment for an existing offence. We reasonably impose restrictions on the liberty of seriously disturbed people who foreseeably present real and serious risks to the safety and lives of those around them, similarly with those with established clear links to terrorist or organised crime groups. As such, while such restrictions on liberty are clearly necessary, they need to be surrounded by greater procedural and other safeguards than apply with the criminal law, not less. 

That is the problem with  the situation of refugees and adverse ASIO assessments: the lack of safeguards and fairness.  My point is that, provided a refugee has a fair chance to test and refute adverse evidence (e.g. through a security-cleared advocate before a tribunal that IS allowed to know the evidence even if the refugee isn&#039;t), restrictions on liberty MAY be justified depending on the circumstances.  In my view a refugee with a profile and background like Jihad Jack Thomas SHOULD be subject to significant restrictions for protection of the community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Control orders, like scheduling under mental health legislation, are about future risk and community protection rather than punishment for an existing offence. We reasonably impose restrictions on the liberty of seriously disturbed people who foreseeably present real and serious risks to the safety and lives of those around them, similarly with those with established clear links to terrorist or organised crime groups. As such, while such restrictions on liberty are clearly necessary, they need to be surrounded by greater procedural and other safeguards than apply with the criminal law, not less. </p>
<p>That is the problem with  the situation of refugees and adverse ASIO assessments: the lack of safeguards and fairness.  My point is that, provided a refugee has a fair chance to test and refute adverse evidence (e.g. through a security-cleared advocate before a tribunal that IS allowed to know the evidence even if the refugee isn&#8217;t), restrictions on liberty MAY be justified depending on the circumstances.  In my view a refugee with a profile and background like Jihad Jack Thomas SHOULD be subject to significant restrictions for protection of the community.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lock them up and throw away the key? by conrad</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/20/lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key-there-must-be-a-better-way/#comment-474079</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 00:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19789#comment-474079</guid>
		<description>This is the difference betweens morals and law, which it seems to me is one of the things that comes out of this post.

Morally, for example, I don&#039;t think people should be held indefintely based on secret evidence, but obviously the law thinks otherwise. Jack Thomas appears to have been lucky in the other direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the difference betweens morals and law, which it seems to me is one of the things that comes out of this post.</p>
<p>Morally, for example, I don&#8217;t think people should be held indefintely based on secret evidence, but obviously the law thinks otherwise. Jack Thomas appears to have been lucky in the other direction.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lock them up and throw away the key? by Katz</title>
		<link>http://clubtroppo.com.au/2012/05/20/lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key-there-must-be-a-better-way/#comment-474078</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 00:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clubtroppo.ozblogistan.com.au/?p=19789#comment-474078</guid>
		<description>Conrad, please desist from verbalising your interlocutors.

I do not think that Thomas is &quot;fine and dandy&quot;, any more than I think that you are &quot;fine and dandy&quot;.

Such an assessment has no judicial function and is therefore irrelevant to the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conrad, please desist from verbalising your interlocutors.</p>
<p>I do not think that Thomas is &#8220;fine and dandy&#8221;, any more than I think that you are &#8220;fine and dandy&#8221;.</p>
<p>Such an assessment has no judicial function and is therefore irrelevant to the case.</p>
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