We’ve been musing for some time about introducing a regular “open forum” post where readers can discuss whatever they like (subject to usual legal and basic civility constraints).
It’s hardly an original idea, but we’ve decided to try a slight innovation that we hope might become an attractive aspect of Club Troppo’s open forum feature. After the thread has evolved for a day or two, Nicholas and I will review the trend of comments and endeavour to pick one or two that explore interesting topics in original or challenging ways. We will then elevate them to the primary post area of the open forum thread, in the hope that they may provide a clearer focus for ensuing discussion.
Why are we doing that? I don’t know about others, but I seldom bother to read open forum threads on other blogs, because I don’t have the time to wade through disparate meanderings whose subject matter I have no way of knowing in advance (and therefore no way of knowing whether I’m likely to be at all interested). Promoting a couple of selected comments to the primary post won’t preclude readers from continuing to post comments on whatever other topics they wish, but it will give readers at least some rough advance idea of the topic/s under discussion.
Why the title The Five Minute Argument ? Baby Boomer readers shouldn’t need to be reminded about the classic Monty Python Argument Sketch. However, the title isn’t an open invitation to engage in unpleasant abuse or endless doctrinaire ideological tub-thumping. Trolls are still likely to have their comments summarily deleted in the interest of productive discussion, and serious obscenity or defamation obviously won’t be tolerated. Let the Argument begin.
PS We’ll attempt to post The Five Minute Argument each Tuesday morning, unless we forget in which case it might be a bit later!
Ken, is that a change to the past Troppo comments policy? I wouldn’t ask but it seems relevant in light of recent controversies on this blog about other blogs’ comments policies.
Kim
I think you may have slightly misinterpreted Don’s opinions and intentions. As I understand his views (and certainly my own), he believes the best course with trolls is simply to summarily delete their offensive/destructive comments without prior warning or subsequent discussion. There’s usually no need to actually IP ban them unless they keep posting comments vexatiously and repetitively despite having had prior ones deleted. If they really are trolls in the true sense, what they crave is attention, and we can starve them of that by simply peremptorily deleting their nonsense and ignoring them, and (hopefully) giving them attention if they post constructive comments. It’s a bit like training a naughty child.
I don’t believe it was Don’s intention to revisit the merits or otherwise of LP banning EP, but rather to use that event as a springboard to discuss the general issue of how best to deal with destructive, attention-seeking commenters. Clearly some other readers took the opportunity of revisiting the EP saga, however, and I hope that hasn’t caused you or other LP-ers undue distress.
Kim
I think you may have misinterpreted Don’s intentions and views in the recent thread. As I understand Don’s position (and certainly my own), the most effective way of dealing with trolls is by peremptorily deleting their destructive comments without warning or discussion. That way we starve them of the attention they crave. If they happen to post something constructive, we reward them with engagement. It’s a bit like training a naughty child. There shouldn’t usually be a need for IP address barring (i.e. complete banning) unless a commenter persists in posting nonsense in the face of peremptory deletion. But again the banning shouldn’t be announced with fanfare, because that simply gratifies the troll’s perverse desire for attention at any cost.
I don’t believe that Don wanted to revisit the merits or otherwise of LP banning EP. It was simply a convenient springboard for discussion of the more general issue of how best to deal with troublesome trolls. Of course, others predictably took the opportunity of reprising the whole episode. But I don’t think they did so to an excessive extent or in a nasty way, and I hope it didn’t cause distress to you, mark or others.
Test. Are comments working?
Kim
I actually do have a substantive answer to your query, but for some reason the troppo comment facility won’t let me post it. I’ll try again and cross my fingers:
Kim
I think you may have misinterpreted Don’s intentions and views in the recent thread. As I understand Don’s position (and certainly my own), the most effective way of dealing with trolls is by peremptorily deleting their destructive comments without warning or discussion. That way we starve them of the attention they crave. If they happen to post something constructive, we reward them with engagement. It’s a bit like training a naughty child. There shouldn’t usually be a need for IP address barring (i.e. complete banning) unless a commenter persists in posting nonsense in the face of peremptory deletion. But again the banning shouldn’t be announced with fanfare, because that simply gratifies the troll’s perverse desire for attention at any cost.
I don’t believe that Don wanted to revisit the merits or otherwise of LP banning EP. It was simply a convenient springboard for discussion of the more general issue of how best to deal with troublesome trolls. Of course, others predictably took the opportunity of reprising the whole episode. But I don’t think they did so to an excessive extent or in a nasty way, and I hope it didn’t cause distress to you, mark or others.
On the whole, Ken, I think the discussion was positive, but not wholly, and the timing could have been a little better, but let’s not go there.
For some reason, this post has come up on Sitemeter as a referrer to TBP. Vanity dragged me here to find out why – I hope the visit wasn’t inspired by the discussion about trolls.
As a slightly somewhat compulsive troll-baiter (or anti-trolling troll), I can’t say that Ken’s naughty child analogy works for me. Leaving aside the affront to my self-esteem, the problem is that with a naughty child, you might conceivably have the advantage of parental authority or, in less functionally middle-class homes, the advantages of superior size and strength. Trolls, unfortunately, regard or pass themselves off as adults and come into the blog commenting game with a raft of assumptions about their rights. Such as that of exercising their free speech on your server.
Right now, I can’t think of a single sanction against trolls, short of banning the buggers, that actual works. Open slather ridicule (preferably of their ideas) just reinforces their smug belief in the superiority of their own intelligence and rationality. So does patient rebuttal; particularly if there’s more than one rebutter. They just see that as their ideological opponents ganging up on them. Yeah, so you’ve all convinced yourselves that I’m wrong, they think, but it took ten of you to do it. Put them on moderation and they’ll just complain about censorship. Plus, as site operator you have to deal with the drag of reading their witterings and abusive comments to decide which ones have enough semblance of rational argument to be worth posting.
What’s needed, it seems to me, is a system that uses the technology to send trolls a clear social signal from a blog’s readers that no-one considers their opinions worth reading – a cyberspace equivalent of the cold shoulder. A couple of weeks ago I was indulging in some wishful thinking with Nabs and said that what I’d really like to see in blogging software is a comments filter that allows you to identify commenters you want to ignore. That, combined with a periodic league table of “Most ignored commenters on this blog” might just do the trick. It’s eminently feasible from a technical point of view too.
Lets talk about something other than trolls.
I enjoyed Brokeback Mountain!
How about garden gnomes, then?
(The things that happen in your local garden centre when the gates are closed!)
It isn’t showing in Darwin. We must be one of those country/outer suburban centres judged by the distributors as too yobbo-ish to be interested in a pooftah cowboy movie. Strange judgment really. It’s showing in Cairns, and Darwin is a capital city with a thriving gay community, gay nightclubs, a significant arts community etc. It rather suggests the distributors don’t know much at all about the place. Pity really. There’s nothing else showing at the moment that I’m remotely interested in seeing and haven’t yet seen, and yet I’m feeling like a trip to the cinema to relieve the pre-semester tedium.
I wanna go after reading the author of the shortstory’s rave about the movie.
Ken, consensus now seems to be that it’s more about a slow rollout of the release as a marketing ploy, rather than prejudice. So you might get the chance!
Otherwise, I’m sure some Darwinians might download the thing off the net and spread it around as a sort of samizdat.
You can always watch Brokeback To The Future while you’re waiting.
Inspired by Gummo’s gnome link, I have a question: Is the interwebs the true home of bad craft?
I read somewhere (can’t find it now) that there is a surge of interest by gay tourists in visiting Wyoming.
So I think the whole thing was a plot by Wyoming to improve its image.
Did Wyoming previously have an image? Just askin…
Why not oming?
I think that Ken, who I believe lives in Darwin, should interview His Majesty King Roman II of Lithuania.
It would be a blogging first, and he might even pick up a dukedom or something.
EP
I’ve already made the acquaintance of His Majesty King Roman, though before his most recent elevation. You can read about it here.
I’m impressed. You knew him when he was just a Prince!
Zoe,
Short answer, no. The interwebs is a great way to sell bad crafts but the true home of bad crafts will always be in the homes of the completely tasteless. You should see my collection of Franklin Mint “Great Moments in Adult Cinema” commemorative plates.
Well, The Five Minute Argument thread has been open for a few days now, and has generated bugger-all in the way of original discussion topics. I wonder why?? Anyway, I certainly can’t identify any comment or topic that merits promotion to the primary post section. Next week perhaps??
And anyone wanting to guest post – just email us – Ken or me at nicholas AT gruen DOT com DOT au.